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Trinitarian-Unitarian Debate

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    Detangling the "Demystified" Logos

    Posted by Steve B. on 8/17/2003 3:44:00 PM
    64.38.163.114

    Since it's now getting pretty far down on the page, and also because I want the series easily available for future reference, I've put my series of postings about Phil's Logos paper up on the Web. It's at http://www.seanet.com/~srborn/DetangledLogos/.

    I'll also post further parts of the series here under this new thread, as well as up on the Web.

    And an additional word about this series—Phil apparently views it as a formal debate, but all I am really doing is giving my reasons why I don't find Phil's paper to be credible, as requested by both Steve M. and Eric H. I'm sure that Phil in turn will not find my reasons credible, but I don't have the time to continue writing further replies of my own to his replies, ad infinitum.

    Sincerely,

    Steve

    Link: Detangling the "Demystified" Logos

     

    Phil's point #8 - Capitalization

    Posted by Steve B. on 8/17/2003 5:36:00 PM
    64.38.163.73

    The eighth point of Phil's paper is titled "Capitalizations Added by Translators." The body of it is short, so I quote it in its entirety here:

    Capitalization of the term ‘Word’ in most translations, as well as the aforementioned pronouns ‘He’ and ‘Him’ also contribute to the impression of the literal personhood and deity of the ‘word’ or ‘logos’, even though neither the Greek text nor the true meaning of ‘logos’ justifies this in the least. On the contrary, this reflects the assumption of personhood and corresponding doctrinal bias injected into the passage by translators, not the original thought of its author.

    This is really just a re-statement of Phil's disagreement with the interpretation of the Logos as a divine person of the Godhead. He continues to claim that anybody's judgement that the Logos does speak of a person is simply due to trinitarian bias, not to a translators knowledge of how language is used and what it means.

    It's of course a convention of the English language to capitalize nouns that refer to God. Most Biblical translators have concluded that the Logos is God (since it does say, after all, right in the text, "In the beginning...the Logos was God"), so they capitalize the word. Phil doesn't think the Logos is God, so he complains. OK. We concede that the word is indeed capitalized, and we do recognize Phil's discomfort at getting again reminded of how few authorities share his opinion.

    But again, they've made their decision on how the word is being used in context. Phil ignores context, and appeals to the Greek text and the "true meaning" of logos to back up his case that the Logos should not be thought of as a divine person in John 1.

    But both those claims are kind of funny:

    1) How can an appeal to "the Greek text" help Phil's case? The text itself does explicitly say "In the beginning...the Logos was God." I'm not aware that any significant textual variants are known to exist, and Phil hasn't referred to any, either. His problem is with the meaning of the words. He doesn't think the words in the text mean what nearly all translators think they do.

    2) The "true meaning" is what is being disputed here. You therefore cannot appeal to the "true meaning" to settle the dispute. Well, I guess you could try, like Phil obviously did, but it won't get you any further than it did him. That's why I don't find this point of Phil's paper to have any more substance than the previous seven.

     

    More concession veiled in rebuttal clothing

    Posted by Phil on 8/18/2003 11:23:00 PM
    12.171.33.109

     

    Steve’s endorsement of the translator bias infused into the capitalizations makes it no less a factor worth pointing out to those who may not be as informed of the real origin of it as some. Rather than dispute the point, again he confirms it.

    He asks, “How can an appeal to ‘the Greek text’ help Phil's case?” and then proceeds to express the interpretational bias I’ve contended is reflected by this feature, adding the brilliant observation, “[Phil] doesn't think the words in the text mean what nearly all translators think they do.”

    This is true, and I contend that the Greek text itself does not specify whether these words should be capitalized or not. This point remains unchallenged.

    Lastly Steve misstates my argument towards suggesting that I’ve applied the same sort of circular reasoning he has, writing, “The "true meaning" is what is being disputed here. You therefore cannot appeal to the ‘true meaning’ to settle the dispute.”

    What I had actually written was that the [emphasis added] “neither the Greek text nor the true meaning of ‘logos’ justifies this in the least.” Since Steve is yet to show any evidence that the definition of ‘logos’ included a person of any sort at the time John’s gospel was written, I defer to the principles of interpretation most of recognized scholars assert: Words must be interpreted according to their meaning at the time they were used, not definitions added centuries later, as Steve and many of those same scholars would hypocritically argue. The logos was a small ‘i’ it, not a capital ‘H’ He or Him.

     

 

    Re: Detangling the "Demystified" Logos

    Posted by Eric H. on 8/17/2003 5:39:00 PM
    12.171.34.116

     

    And I thank you for presenting your 12 counter points. Your dispute so far has been that you reach differing conclusions based on the same information from the sources noted in that article. Phil's article isn't a commentary on the other articles, thus using portions of those articles isn't uncommon when doing a research paper, or engaging in a debate. Though this to you is considered a clownish hack job, I do not see it as such.

    I was hoping to see more credible arguements about the substance of the topic. Thus far you haven't done this. Maybe when you have the time to actually engage in a more formal debate forum you can actually present something on the topic. This is actually what I requested, but thanks just the same.

    Eric H.

     

 

    Point #9 - The Greek Preposition 'Pros'

    Posted by Steve B.  on 8/18/2003 9:24:00 PM
    64.38.163.234

     

    The ninth point of "The Demystified Logos" is titled, "With or WITH - The True Meaning of 'Pros'" It is an extremely baffling section which Phil winds up in the expected way (the logos can't be a person—it's a thing) after quoting two sources that don't help him at all. Both of them support the opposite conclusion, even after Phil again neglects to quote Vincent's Word Studies' most pertinent words on the subject.

    Phil quotes this passage from Vincent's:

    "With" pros (NT:4314) does not convey the full meaning, that there is no single English word which will give it better. The preposition pros (NT:4314), which, with the accusative case, denotes motion toward, or direction, is also often used in the New Testament in the sense of with; and that not merely as "being near or beside," but as a living union and communion; implying the active notion of conversation.

    He leaves out a sentence that occurs a little while later, after Vincent has given a few examples of the way pros is used in the Bible to show relationships between people: "Thus John's statement is that the divine Word not only 'abode' with the Father from all eternity, but was in the living, active relation of communion with Him."

    Phil then intones

    The translation ‘the word (logos) was with God’ implies a static relationship, as though to simply say that one person was with another, but that isn’t the true meaning.

    So far this isn't too bad. We know from Vincent's discussion that pros carries a more active idea of personal social interaction than the English word "with" usually does. But Phil continues on:

    What it means is more like the word or logos was moving towards, proactively interrelated, or in agreement with God. ‘With’ is not a bad translation of ‘pros’ per se, as long as it is understood to mean essentially what the American Heritage Dictionary lists as number 7 of 26 definitions for the word ‘with’:

    7. a. In support of; on the side of: I'm with anyone who wants to help the homeless. b. Of the same opinion or belief as: He is with us on that issue.

    What? First of all, I can accept the words "moving towards, proactively interrelated" as a rough and rather clumsy approximation of Vincent's words (to which Phil is apparently appealing as the "true meaning of pros), but "in agreement with God"? Where did that come from? It doesn't correspond very closely to anything Vincent said. Phil doesn't say where he gets it. But let that pass for now. He is already jumping into the 26 definitions of "with" that he finds in the American Heritage Dictionary, and is pulling out the only one he says will do for us  "In support of, on the side of; ...Of the same opinion or belief as."

    Again—What? This is to lend credence to Phil's claim that the Logos is a thing, not a person? In order to support somebody else you need to have a consciousness of your own, don't you? ...to be a person, in other words? The same with having an opinion or belief. That's a characteristic of a person, right? So out of 26 definitions, this is the one Phil picks as essentially meaning what pros means?

    Wow. Nobody has a talent for digging holes for himself like our man Phil.

    But, oblivious to the fact that he's just put up two quotations that have made his own conclusion almost impossible, Phil tags it on anyway:

    The phrase ‘the Word was with God’ is commonly understood to mean that person of Christ was in the presence of God in the beginning, as though God and His word were two distinct beings dwelling together in heaven. However, what it really means is that the word (of God) was proactively accomplishing His purposes from the beginning, which more or less simply restates the fact that the material creation came forth as a consequence of Yahweh’s word (Gen 1:1, Heb 11:3, etc.) …no other person is inferred at all, only the thing called the logos, the word of God.

    "No other person is inferred at all." In view of what Phil has just quoted for his readers, this stands as highly baffling. Weren't his quotations chosen to show what the use of pros really means here, supporting Phil's claim? But both the passage from Vincent and the definition from the American Heritage Dictionary quite clearly show that the use of pros does in fact infer a relationship between persons. Even the two examples the Dictionary uses both involve persons. So how are we supposed to now agree with the statement that no other person is inferred by its use in John 1:1? I don't get it. I again have to say with emphasis that "The Demystified Logos" is not a credible piece of work.

    Sincerely,

    Steve

     

    Missing persons

    Posted by Phil on 8/18/2003 11:48:00 PM
    12.171.33.109

     

    Again, I do not contend that my sources tend to draw different conclusions than I do, nor do I consider Steve’s verbose reiteration of that point in so many words of great consequence. He and those sources agree that word ‘with’ doesn’t fully convey the meaning of the word ‘pros’, which I believe is common knowledge amongst the people around here. The point is more informative than argumentative, rendered in response to the common misunderstanding that the word ‘with’ implies a static relationship between two distinct beings, which it doesn’t.

    Steve challenges that “both the passage from Vincent and the definition from the American Heritage Dictionary quite clearly show that the use of pros does in fact infer a relationship between persons.” Perhaps, but the correct understanding of the word doesn’t as readily evoke the erroneous picture of two beings sitting on thrones beside each other as the common misunderstanding does. Of course, it also aligns the thought of the personified logos with the considerable literary precedents already covered, such as the Targums saying ‘the word went with Joseph…’ instead of ‘Yahweh went with Joseph…’, etc.

    Since Steve has thus far failed to offer any reason to believe that the word ‘logos’ had any legitimate connotation as a person at the time John’s gospel was written, his conclusions that the word ‘with’ infers a second person ‘with’ God, no matter how popularly held, merits no serious consideration.

     

    Re: Missing persons

    Posted by Greg on 8/19/2003 4:37:00 PM
    64.66.195.23

     

    If, as Phil asserts, the logos is the expression of God PERSONIFIED, it will, of course, be spoken of AS IF it were a person, just as Wisdom was spoken of in Proverbs.

    Relational language describing personification is to be expected, as Phil makes quite clear in his thesis. Any language that speaks of "person" (Steve's position) equally applies to "personification" (Phil's position). One cannot, therefore, insist that relational language proves that the logos is a literal person. Relational language is equally applicable to both.

    There are two examples I like to describe the difference between "with" and "toward".

    The first picture: My dog is WITH me in the park. I am sitting at the picnic table reading. My dog is under the table, chewing on his tennis ball. We are with one another, but the relationship is subdued.

    The second picture: I am holding the tennis ball in my hand. The dog's attention is riveted upon me waiting to sprint for the ball as soon as I throw it. He is not just with me, but his attention is focused raptly upon me - to hastily perform my will. Such is spoken of the word in Isaiah 55:11 - "So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; IT will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding [in the matter] for which I sent IT." (Here the logos is an IT, personified)

    Another example I might use to show the difference between "with" and "toward": "Gentlemen, would you rather have your wife "with" you in bed, or have her "toward" you in bed (an entirely different prospect)?

     

    Re: Detangling the "Demystified" Logos

    Posted by Phil on 8/19/2003 12:09:00 PM
    208.188.193.124

     

    While noting that Steve has included a link to the original article, it is also true that his index doesn't include the points of the original article except as selectively quoted within the rebuttals, nor my follow-up comments to Steve's rebuttals. Regardless of intent, Steve has made HIS comments easily available in a way that isolates them from the context of the article he seeks to refute and the counterpoints made to them.

    In contrast, I have posted under one easy heading: 1) The entire article, including the introduction that has been ignored here, 2) Steve's rebuttals, and 3) My follow-up comments. The link for this is given below.

    Steve adds the following qualification:

    "Phil apparently views it as a formal debate, but all I am really doing is giving my reasons why I don't find Phil's paper to be credible, as requested by both Steve M. and Eric H."

    Actually, since there has been no credible rebuttal to the article since its original publication on the internet three years ago, I find Steve's opposing views to add to the light cast on the subject for the sake of readers.

    I'm sure that Phil in turn will not find my reasons credible, but I don't have the time to continue writing further replies of my own to his replies, ad infinitum.

    I didn't comment the first time he said this, and I see no reason for Steve to contend with his conjecture of my thoughts. Frankly, I just appreciate the challenge, no matter how slight or abbreviated it may be. Steve's conjecture notwithstanding, this is amply demonstrated by my work in putting the entire debate together in a full and coherent way.

     

    Point #8 - Is the Logos really God?

    Posted by Steve B.  on 8/19/2003 9:00:00 PM
    64.38.163.75

     

    Point #10 of Phil's paper is titled, "Is the Logos Really God?"

    In it, Phil continues to distort the historical and linguistic evidence almost beyond recognition. He writes,

    Having already covered how ‘the word’ or ‘memra’ was freely substituted for ‘Yahweh’ in the course of public readings of the Scripture in the synagogues, it naturally follows that the same was true of the common literary usage of the Greek word ‘logos’, as well. Thus, the answer to the question at hand is yes, in the minds of John’s contemporaries, it was perfectly appropriate to refer to God as ‘the word,’ or vice-versa.

    Notice first of all how this is inconsistent with the case Phil has been building for logos being a personification. A personification is not the same thing as a substitution of one word for something else. In anybody's judgment besides Phil's, that is.

    Further, apparently forgetting the material he quoted about Philo several sections ago, Phil contradicts himself again and now tells us "the common literary usage of the Greek word logos" is nothing but the very same thing as the usage of memra in the Hebrew. This is staggering nonsense.

    In reality, of course, besides for the fact that it was never known to be used in the same way as the memra of the Targums, logos or "word" was not limited to one simple meaning "in the minds of John's contemporaries" (or in any other minds, for that matter). Raymond E. Brown in the volume on John (vol. 29) in the Anchor Bible lists the known meanings with which the first century Hellenic world would have been familiar before they encountered the book of John:

    1. Meanings in Hellenistic sources:
      1. Heraclitus: logos = the eternal principle of order.
      2. Stoics: logos = the mind of God.
      3. Philo: logos = an intermediary between God and has creatures. Gave meaning to the universe. Almost a second God.
    2. Meanings in Jewish sources:
      1. Prophetic Word of the Lord, and the Word active in creation.
      2. Personified Wisdom: The Word = the agent of creation.
      3. Jewish speculation on the Law: the Word of God = the Law. The Law is pictured as having been created before all things and having served as the pattern for creation.
      4. Targumic use of Memra : Memra = surrogate for God himself. This is not personification, but the use of Memra serves as a buffer for divine transcendence.

    In addition to these uses, Brown list three other meanings which may have originated after John's time, or maybe before - it is hard to know exactly when they came into use. These additional meanings are found in Hermetic literature, in the Mandean liturgies, and in Gnosticism, all of which give "Word" or "Word of God" different meanings yet again from the above meanings.

    So we are right back where we always were. We can take a look at all these uses, and decide to what degree they may or may not illuminate John's use, but, as in any question of interpretation, context is the decisive indicator of meaning. And it's clear which way we are pointed by the context in which John puts the Logos. As I said before, we know the Logos identifies a Christ who existed in the beginning with God and as God because that is the way Christ continues to be identified in the rest of John's Gospel. The Logos is said to be God at the first of the Gospel, and Jesus is said to be God at the end. In between, as the Word made flesh, Jesus is said to be equal to the Father, claims himself to have existed before Abraham and to have had glory with the Father before the world was, and says he is in the Father and the Father in him. Unbiased readers need no literary analyst to tell them whether or not the Word is a person, nor to reveal to them the identity of that person.

    Phil, of course, doesn't touch context with a ten-foot pole, but he does seem to be getting more and more nervous about his description of the logos as a "personification." That description doesn't occur in this section. Instead, Phil seems to waffle a little on the precise definition when he writes,

    Thus, for John to say, ‘the logos was the same as God’ to them was no different than any number of similar statements and implications by philosophers and religionists of that generation. It was a statement about the nature of the word of God, which embodied of all of God’s will, works, manifestations, and revelations in the world.

    That is pretty vague. Phil's bottom line seems to be we can pick any one, or all, of the definitions current in the ancient world, just as long as we don't say John could have given it a new meaning of his own. But if the Stoics, or Heraclitus, or Philo, could give logos their own meaning, why can't John? Does Phil really think that question won't occur to his readers?

     

    Above should read "#10"

    Posted by Steve B.  on 8/19/2003 9:02:00 PM
    64.38.163.75

    God is God, and His word is His word

    Posted by Phil on 8/20/2003 12:29:00 PM
    208.188.193.207

     

    In defense of my primary contention that the word of God (logos) did not carry the definition of being the literal person of God and/or Christ in John’s day, let me challenge all the evidence Steve has introduced to the contrary. First, Steve’s evidence…
     

    …searching
    …searching
    …searching


    Okay, so there isn’t any, so let me instead address Steve’s contention that John “could have given it a new meaning of his own”. Perhaps Steve can (though he hasn’t) find an acknowledged authority who contends that interpreting the words of Scripture based on non-existent definitions at the time they were written is good practice. Since he has put so much stock in the doctrinal conclusions of such “authorities” (who are not by any means silent on the subject of Biblical interpretation) this would seem reasonable. Perhaps he could even give us a reason to accept what seems to me and all the “authorities” I’ve consulted an absolutely unreasonable approach to Biblical interpretation.

    That said, Steve’s contention against all the literary evidence already presented remains harmonious with “orthodox theology”: That John intended us to understand his prologue to mean that the word of God (logos) was literally the person of God.

    Skipping over the ad hominem wrappings of Steve’s empty challenges, we are left with an argument that completely evades the point: “A personification is not the same thing as a substitution of one word for something else.” The profundity of the argument is truly mind boggling! Not that it really matters, but the substitution of a thing for a person in a literary work would generally also qualify as a personification. More to the point, it would not qualify as a new definition of the thing as a person.

    Steve regards this as a distortion of historical and linguistic evidence, which, it would seem we are to accept on the same basis we are to accept a definition of the word ‘logos’ that didn’t exist at the time John wrote his gospel – because Steve says so.

    Next we are to accept that my contention that “in the minds of John’s contemporaries, it was perfectly appropriate to refer to God as ‘the word,’ or vice-versa” is “staggering nonsense” on the same basis. His argument is that my previous well-qualified reference to Philo’s philosophical usage of the term negates my connection with the directly parallel substitution (and simultaneous personification) of ‘the word’ or ‘memra’ in the Jewish Targums read regularly in the synagogues. The only “staggering nonsense” represented here is Steve’s resort to a frivolous argument instead of acknowledging the obvious connection between common Jewish representations of the word of God and John’s.

    Though Steve is perfectly willing to completely disregard the commonly held principle of hermeneutics regarding using word definitions current with the time of writing, he now wants to inappropriately apply another common principle in its stead. According to Steve, we should interpret the definition of ‘logos’ according to the context rather than the meaning the word actually had to John and his contemporaries!

    Of course, having taken such license, it is no great reach for him to also unequivocally represent his own doctrinal bias as the “context” by which we should further pervert the text of John’s gospel. According to Steve, we are to accept his interpretation of other passages in John’s Gospel as fact (I won’t chase those red herrings at the moment) and, therefore, accept his definition of ‘logos’ as the person of God who became the man Yahshua Christ based on those "facts". Notably absent in this thin line of circular reasoning is the fact that none of the other 60+ usages of the word ‘logos’ in John’s Scriptures infer such a definition. Round and round we go.

    Steve concludes by suggesting that the diverse connotations of the word ‘logos’ at that time somehow gives us a reason to buy his contention that John simply made up a new definition for himself. What he fails to see is that the different usages of the word were rooted in different fundamental views of who and what God was and how He and His works related to the material universe, not so much what the word itself meant. They were religious and philosophical differences, not grammatical ones. As I wrote in a previously covered section, “The overwhelming testimony of such resources indicates that whatever else may be said of the connotations of the ‘logos’ in John’s day, it was universally regarded as a thing, not a person, even when used in close connection with God, His will, and His works.” Even the 7 definitions Steve listed from the Anchor Bible, useful information though that is, affirm the same.

    Thus, to interpret “the word was God” as a literal statement that there was no distinction between the word of God and God Himself remains a gross violation of all the evidence, generally accepted hermeneutics, and common sense. It remains an obvious personification of the logos, not a personalization of it.
     

     

    I'm curious...

    Posted by Steve B. on 8/20/2003 2:13:00 PM
    209.234.157.68

     

    In my posting above, I referred to a statement by Raymond E. Brown, who has spent his life studying language and religious literature, that the use of Memra in the Targums is not a personification.

    If that is not "evidence" to you, what would you consider to be evidence?

    ---Steve

     

    So am I

    Posted by Phil on 8/20/2003 2:44:00 PM
    208.188.193.207

     

    I didn’t take Mr. Brown’s statement to mitigate either my expanded discussion on this usage or your won insistence that John intended to assign a “new meaning of his own” to the word ‘logos’. Rather, I took it in the context of your trivial argument regarding the distinction between “substitution” and “personification”, which I already addressed.

    Although I can’t really say that I fully understand Brown’s distinction between use of the word as “a buffer for divine transcendence” and its usage as at least a virtual personification of Yahweh, it seems to fall way short of corroborating John’s alleged “new meaning” as the literal person of God.

    Perhaps you could elaborate on how this supports the notion that the word was understood to literally mean God Himself rather than a “surrogate for God Himself”, as Brown wrote.
     

     

    Re: So am I

    Posted by Steve B. on 8/20/2003 3:12:00 PM
    209.234.157.68

     

    You've made statements that 1) the Logos in John 1 is a personification, and 2) that the use of the Logos in John is the same thing as the use of Memra in the Targums.

    Either Mr. Brown's statement can be used as valid evidence in evaluating those claims, or it cannot. You appeared to reject it as evidence for that use. Is that true? If so, I am wondering on what greater knowledge of language and literature you are relying, and from what sources you will accept evidence.

    ---Steve

     

    Splitting Hairs

    Posted by Phil on 8/20/2003 6:06:00 PM
    208.188.193.239

     

    I must admit that for someone who doesn’t “have time to continue writing further replies of [your] own to [my] replies, ad infinitum,” you sure seem to have seized on a rather hair-splitting point here. I also note that while making much ado over the distinction between “substitution” and “personification”, you are completely avoiding the main point and asserting a definition of the word ‘logos’ that you have no evidence to support. That was the point you initially challenged, though now you wish to change the argument to a challenge of my use of the word “personification”, presumably as opposed to the words “surrogate” or “substitution”, which (as I already explained) I don’t find mutually exclusive in the least. As I wrote and documented in the section on the use of the word ‘memra’ in the Targums:
     

    …while the actual text of Gen 39:21 reads, “But Yahweh was with Joseph….”, what was read in the synagogues was, “But the Memra [Word] was with Joseph…”; likewise, Ps 110:1 was read as “The Memra [Word] says to my Lord…”, while the actual text says, “Yahweh says to my Lord…”.


    I’m sure that such examples were in view in Brown’s definition, but I’m not sure that he intended to negate the characterization of such usages as a personification. Are you? More likely, it would seem to me, that he was simply distinguishing between the definition of the word and its common usage. For instance, the examples above show usages of the ‘memra’ or word of God as ‘a surrogate for God Himself’, but inasmuch as the literal definition of the word ‘memra’ was not understood to actually be God Himself (as I have also shown), these also represent personifications of it. At least that’s how I understand an abstract literary representation of the word of God – a thing – as God Himself, whether a substitution for the name of Yahweh in Scripture text or not.

    When it says the ‘Memra (word) went with Joseph’ I see both a word that was used as a substitution for Yahweh and that was personified as Yahweh. As you pointed out earlier, the word ‘rock’ was used similarly in a couple passages of Scripture, but not to such an extent that it came to actually be commonly understood to represent Yahweh Himself. Had it, then offering a definition of it as a ‘surrogate for God Himself’ might have been in order, as Brown seems to have done with regard to the word ‘logos’. If Brown meant something more or different than that, I’d be genuinely interested in knowing more, but otherwise, I find your little trivial pursuit on this matter unworthy of my own time. Thus, barring the introduction of any real evidence against my real point, I’ll simply rest on what’s already been said, including the two sections of my article in question, which I’ll post next for the sake of others.

     

 

    3. Personification of the ‘Memra’ in the Targums

    Posted by Phil on 8/20/2003 6:08:00 PM
    208.188.193.239

     

    In John’s day, the only copies of the Scriptures were hand written and relatively scarce. In general, common people were only familiar with it through regular readings in the Synagogues. One practice that had developed in these public readings was various paraphrases called the Targums became common, and these included the substitution or paraphrase of various revelations of Yahweh as ‘the memra’. On this, ISBE explains:
     

    5. Targums: Finally in the Targums, which were popular interpretations or paraphrases of the Old Testament Scripture, there was a tendency to avoid anthropomorphic terms or such expressions as involved a too internal conception of God's nature and manifestation. Here the three doctrines of the Word, the Angel, and Wisdom are introduced as mediating factors between God and the world. In particular the chasm between the Divine and human is bridged over by the use of such terms as me'mera' ("word" ) and shekhinah ("glory" ). The me'mera proceeds from God, and is His messenger in Nature and history. But it is significant that though the use of this expression implied the felt need of a Mediator, the Word does not seem to have been actually identified with the Messiah.


    And Vincent adds,
     

    After the Babylonish captivity the Jewish doctors combined into one view the theophanies, prophetic revelations and manifestations of Jehovah generally, and united them in one single conception, that of a permanent agent of Jehovah in the sensible world, whom they designated by the name [Memra] ("word," logos (NT:3056)) of Jehovah. The learned Jews introduced the idea into the Targums, or Aramaean paraphrases of the Old Testament, which were publicly read in the synagogues, substituting the name "the word of Jehovah" for that of Jehovah, each time that God manifested himself. Thus, in Ge 39:21, they paraphrase, "The Memra was with Joseph in prison." In Ps 110. Jehovah addresses the first verse to the Memra. The Memra is the angel that destroyed the first-born of Egypt, and it was the Memra that led the Israelites in the cloudy pillar.


    The average Jew of John’s day, who relied on public readings for their knowledge of the Scripture, was accustomed to having ‘the memra’ meaning ‘the word’ read in place of not only ‘the word of Yahweh’, but of Yahweh Himself. Thus, while the actual text of Gen 39:21 reads, “But Yahweh was with Joseph….”, what was read in the synagogues was, “But the Memra [Word] was with Joseph…”; likewise, Ps 110:1 was read as ‘The Memra [Word] says to my Lord…”, while the actual text says, “Yahweh says to my Lord…”

    ISBE calls this the “deified law”, and, again, associates it with the logos:
     

    (5) Logos, memra' (memera') and angels.-This process of abstraction had gone farthest in Alexandria, where Jewish thought had so far assimilated Platonic philosophy, that Philo and Wisdom conceive God as pure being who could not Himself come into any contact with the material and created world. His action and revelation are therefore mediated by His Powers, His Logos and His Wisdom, which, as personified or hypostatized attributes, become His vicegerents on earth. But in Palestine, too, many mediating agencies grew up between God and man. The memra', or word of God, was not unlike Philo's Logos. The deified law partly corresponded to Alexandrian Wisdom.


    The important thing to note here, again, is that none of these valid precedents regarding the logos or word of Yahweh either indicated reality or personality, according to ISBE:
     

    The Bible, on the other hand, while speaking of Him as invisible, and unknowable through merely human effort (Job 11:7-8; Jn 1:18 ) , yet reveals Him in Christ, who is God and man. Jewish mysticism endeavored to solve the problem of creation by the invention of the 'Adham qadhmon (archetypal man), and earlier by Philo's Logos doctrine and the Memra' of the Targums. But these abstractions have neither reality nor personality.


    Under the article on Logos, ISBE also comments:
     

    As a Palestinian Jew familiar with current Jewish ideas and forms of devout expression, it would be natural for him [John] to adopt a word, or its Greek equivalent, which played so important a part in shaping and expressing the religious beliefs of the Old Testament people. Many scholars consider that we have here the probable source of Johannine language. In the Old Testament, and particularly, in the Targums or Jewish paraphrases, the "Word" is constantly spoken of as the efficient instrument of Divine action; and the "Word of God" had come to be used in a personal way as almost identical with God Himself. In Rev 19:13, we have obviously an adoption of this Hebrew use of the phrase.

    …it has been pointed out by Weizsacker (Apostolisches Zeitalter) that the Word of God is not conceived in the Old Testament as an independent Being, still less as equivalent for the Messiah, and that the rabbinical doctrine which identifies the memra with God is of much later date.


    Again, the evidence all indicates that John incorporated established thought and style in the prologue of his Gospel, but that same evidence also very clearly excludes the conclusion of the word of Yahweh being an independent being.

     

    10. Is the Logos REALLY God?

    Posted by Phil on 8/20/2003 6:11:00 PM
    208.188.193.239

     

    Having already covered how ‘the word’ or ‘memra’ was freely substituted for ‘Yahweh’ in the course of public readings of the Scripture in the synagogues, it naturally follows that the same was true of the common literary usage of the Greek word ‘logos’, as well. Thus, the answer to the question at hand is yes, in the minds of John’s contemporaries, it was perfectly appropriate to refer to God as ‘the word,’ or vice-versa. However, the point of contention here regards whether or not this indicated that the logos was a distinct independent being or person, and the evidence already presented indicates a resounding ‘no’ to that.

    The UBS Scholars offer some interesting insights regarding the phrase ‘the word was God’ (Jn. 1:1):
     

    …Since "God" does not have the article preceding it, "God" is clearly the predicate and "the Word" is the subject. This means that "God" is here the equivalent of an adjective, and this fact justifies the rendering he (the Word) was the same as God. John is not saying that "the Word" was God the Father, but he is affirming that the same divine predication can be made of "the Word" as can be made of God the Father, and so "the Word" can be spoken of as God in the same sense.

    …"God" completely characterizes "the Word," and all that is true of God is true of the Word. This does not mean, however, that the two elements can be inverted, and that one can translate "God was the Word" any more than one can make "Love is God" an inversion of the biblical statement "God is love." It is difficult for some people to recognize that this equational sentence in Greek belongs to the second class because in the predicate the term "God" refers to a unique object. Since this type of equational sentence may be misleading with "God" in the predicate, it is better to translate it "The Word was the same as God" or "Just what God was that is what the Word also was."3


    In other words, the same reasoning seems to apply here that did in the substitution of ‘memra’ for Yahweh in the Targums, though the idea of a personal being apart from God was never in view. While many of our generation imply that John was making a profound statement of identifying a distinct being as the logos, those of John’s day were well accustomed to literary references that represented Yahweh as His word and vice versa. Thus, for John to say, ‘the logos was the same as God’ to them was no different than any number of similar statements and implications by philosophers and religionists of that generation. It was a statement about the nature of the word of God, which embodied of all of God’s will, works, manifestations, and revelations in the world.

    If we desire to understand the true meaning of the passage in question, we must look at it from the perspective of John’s contemporaries, not our own. John used common terms and an established format of HIS day in writing his Gospel record, so we must interpret it accordingly. While ‘the word was God’ may seem to identify a distinct person who is God from our perspective, the evidence is strongly against such a meaning being concluded from the same passage by those living at the time of its writing.

     

    OK. Thanks, Phil. (n/t)

    Posted by Steve B. on 8/20/2003 8:31:00 PM
    64.38.163.175

    Point #11 - Christ as Creator

    Posted by Steve B. on 8/21/2003 8:39:00 PM
    64.38.161.11

     

    Phil starts off Point #11 with something of a misstatement of the orthodox position by titling it, "The Logos ALSO Created All Things?" A more accurate statement of it would be to simply use the words of the passage, and ask, "Was anything created WITHOUT the Logos?" For, of course, the teaching of the church has always been from the New Testament onwards, that Christ personally is the Logos, and as such is not only the mediator by and through whom God created all, but also the means by and through whom God sustains all. This is stated in Colossians 1:16-17 and Hebrews 1:1-2 as well as here in John 1—

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    (John 1:1-3 KJV)

    For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    (Col 1:16-17 KJV)

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds...
    (Heb 1:1-2 KJV)

    These verses pretty much speak for themselves. Taken together, they are a powerful witness to the identity of the Logos (the living Word by which God creates and sustains), and to Christ's deity. They need no comment. All Phil can do in this section is complain that belief in the literal meaning of these passages represents a "misinterpretation" that is caused by an "assumption" that the Logos is the pre-existent Christ. However, the belief in Jesus' pre-existence and deity is not something that people start with, but a conclusion they arrive at after seeing consistent threads of teaching in the New Testament like that shown in the above three passages. It is people who teach against the deity of Christ who must work to undermine the natural sense and continuity of the scriptures, not those who worship him as Lord and God.

     

    God as Creator, His word as the means

    Posted by Phil on 8/21/2003 9:58:00 PM
    12.171.32.38

     

    Misrepresenting historical facts, Steve says that “the teaching of the church has always been from the New Testament onwards, that Christ personally is the Logos…” and then goes on to apply more of his trademark circular reasoning to the point at hand. History actually shows such beliefs to have been quite large controversies through several centuries following the apostles, having been settled only by a majority (not unanimous) vote of non-apostles assembled at Nicea in 325 A.D. with the endorsement of a dubious new convert emperor and enforced by the power of the Roman empire’s might. It is the teachings of the apostles, particularly the words of John in the prologue of his gospel, that are at issue, anyway, not the teachings of whatever Steve means by “the church”.

    Though Steve is yet to offer one, single shred of evidence to validate the definition of the logos as “Christ personally” (which is the central point of this debate), he doesn’t have any problem continually injecting that as a premise in his arguments. This circular trend continues as he cites other passages, which he believes argue his understanding of the doctrine he indiscriminately infuses into John’s Prologue, but this debate isn’t about what other passages mean, it is about what John’s Prologue means. Notice how Steve misses the point: Instead of showing how John meant what he claims, he argues how other passages support what he believes and injects into his interpretation of what John wrote. Whether doctrines pertaining to the alleged pre-existence of Christ or His role in creation are true or not, the particular verse in question doesn’t say anything about Christ personally creating anything. Rather, it says that all things were created by the logos or word of God – ‘it’, not ‘He’ or ‘Him’ – just like Gen 1:1 and numerous other passages affirm…nothing more and nothing less.

    If, on the other hand, Steve could show that what he says was a “new definition” of the word ‘logos’ in John’s Prologue is corroborated by any of the other 300+ times it appears in the New Testament (60 or so by John), then he might have something. He can’t, though, because the logos is an ‘it’ throughout Scripture (including Hebrew equivalents in the Old Testament), and IT, not HE, is the means by which God created all things, just like John said when he wrote, “All things came into being by [the word of God], and apart from [the word of God] nothing came into being that has come into being.”

     

    Point #12 - The Incarnation

    Posted by Steve B. on 8/23/2003 12:38:00 PM
    64.38.163.147

     

    Phil's last section is titled, "The Logos Was Made Flesh." In it, Phil attempts to dilute the force of those words in John 1:14 by attempting to convince us they mean no more than that Jesus is a man who has been "chosen to manifest and reveal Yahweh... Yahweh’s Prime Minister or Chief Executive Officer if you will." Here again, Phil completely disregards context. Because of that, and because by verbal sleight-of-hand Phil so often attempts to change its phrases into something they are not, the entire Prologue is worth quoting in full at this time to show just exactly what Phil is up against:

     
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
    5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
    6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
    7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
    8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
    9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
    10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
    11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
    15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
    16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
    17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
    18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
    (John 1:1-18 KJV)



    This is the context of the words, "the Word was made flesh," a passage which is itself of course in the context of the Gospel of John, a book in the New Testament of the Christian Bible. Anyone who cannot see that the Logos of this passage is personally contiguous with the Christ of OT prophecy and the Christ of the NT gospel is beyond any further help of language.

    But I will try anyway, not so much for Phil's sake as for the sake of any who may be wavering in indecision as a result of this new assault upon Jesus's deity by those influenced in the past by the UROG doctrine of the Chapel. And also for the sake of giving a complete answer to Steve M and Eric H, who were the ones who originally suggested I had no reason, outside of an alleged desire to slander Phil, for thinking his paper to be a mockery of scholarship.

    So with that said, I ask my readers to note that the words "the Logos was made flesh" are not the only things here that have led most people to see an incarnation of the eternal Son of God in John's Gospel. In addition to saying the Logos was made flesh, and in fact before using that description, this passage also says the Logos was in the world, but the world did not receive him. It further says to those who did receive him, to those who believed on his name, he gave power to become sons of God. Did the Logos have a name? This verse says he did. It was the name on which men believed, and by which they became sons of God—the name of a person, the name of Jesus.

    Likewise, John says the Logos had a people of his own to who whom he came. Can an impersonal thing have a people of its own? No, but God does, the God who chose the Jews and told them he was their only saviour. And John's prologue summarizes the story found in the rest of this Gospel (as well as in the other Gospels) of how that saviour came to his own people, and was rejected by them and crucified, but rose again in the power of God, and by the grace of God extended that salvation to us.

    The point of verse 14 is not only that the Logos was made flesh, but that he dwelt among us. He was made flesh so that he could dwell among us. The picture is not that of a "representation," but of the personal presence of the one who existed with God and as God in the beginning.

    But Phil would have us to shut our eyes to John's wording on the basis that his meaning has to be limited by the way the philosophies of the world have used logos before him. One cannot but smile sadly at the amount of work he has done to willfully blind himself to meaning that seems so evident to others. He has come up with an inane principle, said to be from hermeneutics, but in reality from his own willful ignorance, that no author can mean more by a word than what it already meant "in the minds of his contemporaries."

    [Continued in next posting...]
     

     

    Point #12 - The Incarnation (cont'd)

    Posted by Steve B. on 8/23/2003 12:40:00 PM
    64.38.163.147

     

    [...continued from previous posting]

    The Demystified Logos is built upon the "common hermeneutical principle" that no Biblical author can mean more by a word than what it already meant "in the minds of his contemporaries." So let us therefore challenge Phil, and ask him the source of his principle - in what book or article can we find it listed among the other principles of hermeneutics? I confess I suspect that Phil has created this principle especially for this case by distorting several of the others. I myself have had a Bible college course in hermeneutics, and I've read fairly widely on the subject both before and after that time, yet I've not heard of this "principle" other than in Phil's own doctrinal speculations. Worse than that, it seems to encourage us to violate several of the hermeneutical principles of which I have heard.

    For example, Hank Hanegraaff of the Christian Research Institute has used an easy-to-remember anagram of LIGHTS for a short list:  Literal Interpretation, Illumination by the Holy Spirit, Grammatical Principles, Historical Context, Teaching Ministry, Scriptural Harmony. (A short article discussing these principles is found at http://www.equip.org/free/DB010.htm.)

    The principal of "Historical Context" does NOT mean that a Biblical author can't use a word in his own way or is limited by past usage, but rather, "The biblical text is best understood when one is familiar with the customs, culture, and historical context of biblical times." It is historical context that in fact allows us to decide that "the Logos" is not being used in the same way by John as it was used by others. We know a lot about the historical context of the other philosophies and religions for which the term logos was significant, and one immediately sees that John is not speaking from their world in his use of logos, but rather in a way unique to the New Testament.

    This is because of another of CRI's principles of hermeneutics: Scriptural Harmony. Hanegraaff explains this to mean that, "Individual passages of Scripture must always be in harmony with Scripture as a whole." In the case of the Logos, this means it is consistent with the rest of Scriptures, in which Christ is continually pictured as possessing a sonship in relation to God that goes beyond mere human sonship to include divine characteristics such as eternal existence, power, and glory.

    CRI's principle of Scriptural Harmony is another way of saying that scripture must be allowed to interpret itself. In the Bible college course that I had at the Chapel, this principle was broken down into several levels, the most relevant of which stated, "Take words in the sense indicated by the context." In my notes, I have the instructor explaining it this way—

    - in Biblical language, as in any language, a word varies in significance and meaning depending upon its context...
    - to determine whether or not the word is meant in a spiritual, figurative, or literal sense, the context must be studied carefully...
    - to have a proper system of Biblical hermeneutics, have to understand that God is the author of the Bible, not man.
    - therefore, a few points must be kept in mind:
        - God is not bound to limit himself to man's understanding (Is 55:8-9).
        - God has not bound himself to man's definitions.
        - God is not bound to man's interpretations...

    Though I've come to believe the Chapel itself abused these principles (to say the least), they took these principles from standard evangelical works of scholarship. They remain sound principles if followed, but I think that is precisely what Phil neglects to do. He instead violates the principles of hermeneutics by saying a term's meaning (in this case, "the logos") must be defined by known meanings in other philosophies and religions, not by the context in which the Biblical author uses it, or by the kinds of things that author says about it.

    Let's also look at Phil's statement that the NT uses logos in 326 other places (I forget the exact number) and nowhere does it have the meaning assigned to it by most commentators in John's prologue. This turns out to have an easy and obvious answer. Many times words are used in non-literal ways, not in their ordinary dictionary meaning. The words "bread", "door", and "light" are also used to refer to the person of Jesus. Are we to deny this because in the rest of their Biblical uses, "they mean a thing, not a person." Of course not. The real question is to ask, where else is logos used in the form "THE logos" as a name or title, as John uses in his first chapter? That is what we are talking about. And the answer to that is—in two other places:  1 John 1:1 and Revelation 19:13. Not surprisingly, in both places "the Word" also refers to Jesus Christ, and the first reference is again in the context of the incarnation—

    1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)
    (1 John 1:1-2 KJV)

    11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
    (Rev 19:11-16 KJV)

    All we need to do, then, in reply to Phil's last point is to note that one of the best (agreed upon) hermeneutical principles is to let scripture interpret scripture. When we do that, there is no problem in seeing that John's object in showing us the Logos was to show us that Jesus was not only the Father's personal mediator in the creation of the new life in salvation, but also in the creation of all things at all times, everywhere. By Jesus Christ all things have been created and are sustained.

     

    Humpty-Dumpty Hermeneutics - Part 1

    Posted by Phil on 8/29/2003 11:14:00 AM
    12.171.33.98

     

    Steve correctly notes that one of my central premises is that the words of Scripture must be understood within the range of definitions that applied at the time of writing, and, conversely, that it is unreasonable to interpret Scripture based on word definitions that didn’t exist at the time they were written. While this actually seems to stand on reason alone, Steve attacks this principle in his typical denigrating way, declaring it:
     

    “…an inane principle, said to be from hermeneutics, but in reality from his own willful ignorance, that no author can mean more by a word than what it already meant ‘in the minds of his contemporaries’ …So let us therefore challenge Phil, and ask him the source of his principle - in what book or article can we find it listed among the other principles of hermeneutics? I confess I suspect that Phil has created this principle especially for this case by distorting several of the others.”


    Since this challenge provokes me to digress somewhat from the point at hand, I’ve opted to deal with it separately. I’ll respond to whatever fragments of Steve’s arguments remain after this in another post.

    To begin with, let me briefly outline the different principles of Bible interpretation between Steve and I: The central point is how do we correctly define the words of Scripture. It is noteworthy that Steve’s current position differs somewhat with his original contention. At the onset of these proceedings, he argued that John was using an existing definition of the word ‘logos’, saying,
     

    “…The point at stake, however, is not whether a new or unique definition is being used, but whether John is using an existing definition of a term to illuminate an aspect of something (or somebody) else upon which he wants to focus.”


    To which I responded (and later explained),
     

    “Begging to differ, the ‘point at stake’ is indeed regarding the true definition of the word ‘logos’, Steve’s effort to change the subject notwithstanding. I happen to agree that John’s purpose in the Prologue goes to illuminating something new, though not in the same way as Steve.”


    This is relevant because it was only later, after numerous challenges failed to elicit any corroborating evidence that anyone of or before John’s time actually perceived the logos to be a person and not a thing (the word of God, not the word as God), Steve’s position changed. Then came forth the notion that we should interpret the word logos without regard to definitions current with John’s time and instead take John’s usage as a “new meaning” of the word, as he wrote:
     

    “Phil's bottom line seems to be we can pick any one, or all, of the definitions current in the ancient world, just as long as we don't say John could have given it a new meaning of his own.”


    As I will show, contrary to Steve’s unqualified opinion, I am far from alone in regarding word definitions as the most basic element of Scripture interpretation, and, further, that those definitions must be real and not contrived. In contrast, Steve’s method is well described in an article titled “Language” (http://www.robibrad.demon.co.uk/Language.htm) by Robert Bradshaw as “The Humpty-Dumpty effect”, which he explains:
     

    “…named after a famous speech by the fore-mentioned character in ‘Alice Through The Looking Glass’. Humpty Dumpty declared that ‘When I use a word, it means what I want it to mean, nothing more, nothing less.’ Alice told him that he was wrong, and she was right to do so, because no one can play fast and loose with words and get away with it. A series of words cannot mean anything you wish them to mean.”


    While this method of word usage may seem plausible on the basis of the numbers and credentials of those who accept it with regard to the logos in John 1, it begs the question, was the Apostle John saying to himself as he wrote by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, ‘When I use a word, it means what I want it to mean…’? The very notion defies another of the most obvious, commonly accepted, and basic principles of interpretation – common sense. As I said elsewhere already, just as it would be wrong to read an 18th century account of a ‘gay’ man as referring to his sexual orientation, so is it wrong to apply more recent definitions of the Greek word ‘logos’ to Scriptures written in the 1st century. This seems rather self-evident to me, but I still have Steve’s challenge to contend with, so I’m compelled to digress into demonstrating that this concept is not a principle derived from my own alleged “willful ignorance”. In the process, I will also show that Steve is actually guilty of the very thing he flippantly accuses me of.

    Hopefully, most people need no further proof that interpreting words according to their connotations at the time they were written is the only sensible approach to interpreting any literature, especially the Scriptures. Likewise, I trust the underlying point that is somewhat obfuscate by this ridiculous challenge is obvious to the readers: Steve is proposing that the ‘logos’ in John 1 be defined by a definition that was contrived long after John’s death, which reason alone shows to be an untenable position. Nevertheless, let’s see what the “authorities” Steve puts so much stock in say:

    In the same article referenced above, Bradshaw goes on to affirm my premise, explaining the common sense principle with much more technical precision than I:
     

    “The meanings of words are not static; language changes and develops as the people who use it change and develop. Over the centuries the range of meanings a word has (its semantic range) changes, a process known as diachronic change.
    “…Related to this is the mistake of reading a later meaning back into a biblical word, known as semantic anachronism.
    “… It is the meaning at the time of writing (the synchronic meaning) that is most important for the correct exegesis of a passage.”


    Then, in an article titled, “How To Read The New Testament Letters” (http://www.robibrad.demon.co.uk/NTLetters.htm), Bradshaw lists as the first general guideline,
     

    1. ) A TEXT CANNOT MEAN SOMETHING TO US THAT IT COULD NOT HAVE MEANT TO ITS ORIGINAL READERS.(4) This is a very important principle and is the best test of whether you have applied the text correctly.”


    Obviously, John’s readers would have understood the term ‘logos’ according to their understanding of the term (which I have discussed at length already), not what was later assigned to the word based on “doctrinal statements” supposedly made in John’s Prologue, as Vine’s Expository Dictionary declares. Others echo the same thought (emphasis mine):
     

    “Interpreting the Bible correctly is a two-step process. We must first discover what the passage meant in the day and age of the author. …Why are these two steps important? First, the Bible was not actually written directly to us, and it makes sense to put ourselves in the shoes of the original audience if we are to understand its message properly”…

    (“BIBLE, INTERPRETATION OF” from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright (c)1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

    “The meaning of a piece of writing is seldom clearly self-evident to anyone who happens to read it. Especially is this true if the writing is a very old document, written for someone who lived in a very different cultural-historical setting. If we want to interpret a piece of literature, we must ask at least five questions: 1) Who was the writer and to whom was he writing? 2) What was the cultural-historical setting of the writer? 3) What was the meaning of the words in the writer's day?…”

    “…The interpreter needs to know as much as possible about the writer and his cultural-historical setting. If we know nothing concerning who wrote a passage, when it was written, or under what conditions it was written, we are almost left to guess what its meaning might be. Knowing what an author has experienced and what the thought forms of his day were aids us in understanding his writing.”


    (Note that Steve has conveniently rejected the considerable evidence brought forth regarding the “thought forms of [John’s] day” on the word ‘logos’, telling us rather that we should interpret the word as though John pulled a Humpty-Dumpty on his readers by assigning a “new meaning” to the word.)
     

    “…Lexical study is the next phase of your literary study of the Bible. You must consult a lexicon or dictionary to find the meaning key words had when the original writer used them. His words may have a different meaning today, and you must know what they meant when originally used.

    (“BIBLE, HERMENEUTICS” from Holman Bible Dictionary. (c) Copyright 1991 by Holman Bible Publishers. All rights reserved.)

    (continued...)

     

    Humpty-Dumpty Hermeneutics - Part 2

    Posted by Phil on 8/29/2003 11:16:00 AM
    12.171.33.98

     

    (...continued from Part 1)

    While Holman’s spells out the obvious reasons for looking beyond English translations in order to discern the original meaning of the words of Scripture, the point is implicit in many others simply by their urgings to refer to dictionaries and lexicons. While Steve charges that I have just made this principle up out of my own “willful ignorance”, one must wonder why virtually every published work in existence regarding Bible interpretation or study directs people to take advantage of such resources. Obviously, most published “authorities” on the subject seem to think that the definitions of the original words of Scripture matter. However, in contrast, Steve’s twisted Humpty-Dumpty hermeneutics don’t require any such references, for we can just interpret the passage and assign whatever definitions we want according to our interpretation of the passage and our general doctrinal bias. That may work in Wonderland, but here in the real world, most people figure the first step of understanding what someone means is to know what the words they used mean.

    The need to understand the words of Scripture in their original languages is even implicit in the short article by Hank Hanegraaff that Steve cited. Beginning with the first point, “Literal Interpretation”, Hanegraaff wrote (emphasis mine):
     

    “In simple terms, this means that we are to interpret the Word of God just as we interpret other forms of communication — in its most obvious and literal sense. …And where the biblical writers express their ideas in literal statements, the interpreter must take those statements in a literal sense. In this way, the interpreter will grasp the intended meaning of the writer.”


    Of course, this only indirectly applies to the point in dispute, but it is evident that the only way to discern a literal understanding of any passage necessarily involves having a literal understanding of what the words meant. This point is more clearly evidenced in the third of five principles outlined by Hanegraaff, “Grammatical Principles”:
     

    “…If you do not know Greek or Hebrew, however, don’t panic. Today there are a host of eminently usable tools to aid you in gaining insights from the original languages of Scripture. Besides commentaries, there are “interlinear” translations that provide the Hebrew and Greek text of the Bible in parallel with the English text. As well, Strong’s concordance has a number-coding system by which you can look up the Greek or Hebrew word (along with a full definition) behind each word in the English Bible. Moreover, there are dictionaries of Old and New Testament words that are keyed to Strong’s concordance. Tools such as these make it easy for the layperson to obtain insights on the original Hebrew or Greek of the Bible without being fluent in these languages.”


    It is interesting that Steve skipped right over this, the most pertinent of the five points of Hanegraaff’s article, in order to argue that the next one (“Historical Context”) did not support my premise. Even in that, his argument is weak, to say the least. Although Steve would like to completely discard the historical context of the thought associated with the word ‘logos’ in the first century, sufficient evidence has been provided to surmise that either John was a complete buffoon, or he took this into full account in his usage of the word. In fact, if the principle of regarding historical context has any bearing on anything in the Bible, it would surely apply to John’s use of the word ‘logos’ (which was loaded to the hilt with contemporary thought at the time) in his Prologue. As Hanegraaff wrote,
     

    “The biblical text is best understood when one is familiar with the customs, culture, and historical context of biblical times.”


    From this, Steve attempts to perpetuate his table turning by suggesting that the historical context “does NOT mean that a Biblical author can't use a word in his own way or is limited by past usage.” Notice how the implication here is that I must prove that John didn’t use the word ‘logos’ according to new, different, and unheard of definition, not that Steve must support his contention that John employed a “new meaning” for the word. This misapplication of the burden of proof is unacceptable: The fact that Steve cannot validate his own assertion does not compel me to disprove it. I might as well try to disprove the notion that the word ‘logos’ meant ice cream.

    Then, going even further into Wonderland, Steve suggests a reverse application of the principle by arguing that his “new meaning” of the ‘logos’ must be correct since it is at odds with the historical context and “unique [even] to the New Testament”! How bizarre is that! Lest someone think I’m making that up, here’s his own words:
     

    “It is historical context that in fact allows us to decide that "the Logos" is not being used in the same way by John as it was used by others. We know a lot about the historical context of the other philosophies and religions for which the term logos was significant, and one immediately sees that John is not speaking from their world in his use of logos, but rather in a way unique to the New Testament.”


    Next, Steve explains himself by rendering the same circular argument he’s been applying throughout this debate: That we should interpret John’s Prologue right down to the definition of the word ‘logos’ according to the doctrinal bias that was established over 100 years after John’s death, rather than using sound exegesis to draw the meaning out of the passage. This is a classic example eisegesis (injecting one’s own thoughts into Scripture), which is universally portrayed as the wrong way to interpret Scripture. Steve feebly attempts to draw justification for this from Hanegraaff’s last point (“Scriptural Harmony”) as follows:
     

    “ This is because of another of CRI's principles of hermeneutics: Scriptural Harmony. Hanegraaff explains this to mean that, ‘Individual passages of Scripture must always be in harmony with Scripture as a whole.’ In the case of the Logos, this means it is consistent with the rest of Scriptures, in which Christ is continually pictured as possessing a sonship in relation to God that goes beyond mere human sonship to include divine characteristics such as eternal existence, power, and glory.”


    Before responding to this, it bears mentioning that the specific point of “The De-Mystified Logos” pertains to the correct interpretation of John’s Prologue with particular focus on the word ‘logos’, not the deity of Christ and related doctrines. As I wrote in the Introduction,
     

    “Although I make no pretense regarding my own bias, this contention is specifically against the typical arguments raised from John 1 in support of the deity of Christ doctrine, not the doctrine itself. Whether or not the deity of Christ doctrine is true, John wrote ‘logos’, not ‘Christ’, and meant it according to the common usage of the word in his time, not ours.”


    Now, to Steve’s point, let