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Trinitarian-Unitarian Debate
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Detangling
the "Demystified" Logos
Posted by Steve B. on 8/17/2003
3:44:00 PM
64.38.163.114
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Since it's now getting pretty far down on the page, and also
because I want the series easily available for future reference, I've
put my series of postings about Phil's Logos paper up on the Web. It's
at
http://www.seanet.com/~srborn/DetangledLogos/.
I'll also post further parts of the series here under this new
thread, as well as up on the Web.
And an additional word about this series—Phil apparently views it
as a formal debate, but all I am really doing is giving my reasons why
I don't find Phil's paper to be credible, as requested by both Steve
M. and Eric H. I'm sure that Phil in turn will not find my reasons
credible, but I don't have the time to continue writing further
replies of my own to his replies, ad infinitum.
Sincerely,
Steve
Link:
Detangling the "Demystified" Logos
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Phil's point
#8 - Capitalization
Posted by Steve B. on 8/17/2003
5:36:00 PM
64.38.163.73
The eighth point of Phil's paper is titled "Capitalizations
Added by Translators." The body of it is short, so I quote it in
its entirety here:
Capitalization of the term ‘Word’ in most translations, as
well as the aforementioned pronouns ‘He’ and ‘Him’ also
contribute to the impression of the literal personhood and deity
of the ‘word’ or ‘logos’, even though neither the Greek text nor
the true meaning of ‘logos’ justifies this in the least. On the
contrary, this reflects the assumption of personhood and
corresponding doctrinal bias injected into the passage by
translators, not the original thought of its author.
This is really just a re-statement of Phil's disagreement with
the interpretation of the Logos as a divine person of the Godhead.
He continues to claim that anybody's judgement that the Logos does
speak of a person is simply due to trinitarian bias, not to a
translators knowledge of how language is used and what it means.
It's of course a convention of the English language to capitalize
nouns that refer to God. Most Biblical translators have concluded
that the Logos is God (since it does say, after all, right in the
text, "In the beginning...the Logos was God"), so they capitalize
the word. Phil doesn't think the Logos is God, so he complains.
OK. We concede that the word is indeed capitalized, and we do
recognize Phil's discomfort at getting again reminded of how few
authorities share his opinion.
But again, they've made their decision on how the word is being
used in context. Phil ignores context, and appeals to the Greek
text and the "true meaning" of logos to back up his case
that the Logos should not be thought of as a divine person in
John 1.
But both those claims are kind of funny:
1) How can an appeal to "the Greek text" help Phil's case? The
text itself does explicitly say "In the beginning...the
Logos was God." I'm not aware that any significant textual
variants are known to exist, and Phil hasn't referred to any,
either. His problem is with the meaning of the words. He doesn't
think the words in the text mean what nearly all translators think
they do.
2) The "true meaning" is what is being disputed here. You
therefore cannot appeal to the "true meaning" to settle the
dispute. Well, I guess you could try, like Phil obviously did, but
it won't get you any further than it did him. That's why I don't
find this point of Phil's paper to have any more substance than
the previous seven. |
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More
concession veiled in rebuttal clothing
Posted by Phil on
8/18/2003 11:23:00 PM
12.171.33.109
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Steve’s endorsement of the translator bias infused into the
capitalizations makes it no less a factor worth pointing out to those
who may not be as informed of the real origin of it as some. Rather
than dispute the point, again he confirms it.
He asks, “How can an appeal to ‘the Greek text’ help Phil's case?”
and then proceeds to express the interpretational bias I’ve contended
is reflected by this feature, adding the brilliant observation,
“[Phil] doesn't think the words in the text mean what nearly all
translators think they do.”
This is true, and I contend that the Greek text itself does not
specify whether these words should be capitalized or not. This point
remains unchallenged.
Lastly Steve misstates my argument towards suggesting that I’ve
applied the same sort of circular reasoning he has, writing, “The
"true meaning" is what is being disputed here. You therefore cannot
appeal to the ‘true meaning’ to settle the dispute.”
What I had actually written was that the [emphasis added] “neither
the Greek text nor the true meaning of ‘logos’ justifies this
in the least.” Since Steve is yet to show any evidence that the
definition of ‘logos’ included a person of any sort at the time John’s
gospel was written, I defer to the principles of interpretation most
of recognized scholars assert: Words must be interpreted according to
their meaning at the time they were used, not definitions added
centuries later, as Steve and many of those same scholars would
hypocritically argue. The logos was a small ‘i’ it, not a capital ‘H’
He or Him.
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Re:
Detangling the "Demystified" Logos
Posted by Eric H. on 8/17/2003 5:39:00 PM
12.171.34.116
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And I thank you for presenting your 12 counter points. Your
dispute so far has been that you reach differing conclusions based on
the same information from the sources noted in that article. Phil's
article isn't a commentary on the other articles, thus using portions
of those articles isn't uncommon when doing a research paper, or
engaging in a debate. Though this to you is considered a clownish hack
job, I do not see it as such.
I was hoping to see more credible arguements about the substance of
the topic. Thus far you haven't done this. Maybe when you have the
time to actually engage in a more formal debate forum you can actually
present something on the topic. This is actually what I requested, but
thanks just the same.
Eric H. |
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Point #9 -
The Greek Preposition 'Pros'
Posted by Steve B. on 8/18/2003
9:24:00 PM
64.38.163.234
The ninth point of "The Demystified Logos" is titled, "With or
WITH - The True Meaning of 'Pros'" It is an extremely baffling
section which Phil winds up in the expected way (the logos can't
be a person—it's a thing) after quoting two sources that don't
help him at all. Both of them support the opposite conclusion,
even after Phil again neglects to quote Vincent's Word Studies'
most pertinent words on the subject.
Phil quotes this passage from Vincent's:
"With" pros (NT:4314) does not convey the full meaning, that
there is no single English word which will give it better. The
preposition pros (NT:4314), which, with the accusative case,
denotes motion toward, or direction, is also often used in the
New Testament in the sense of with; and that not merely as
"being near or beside," but as a living union and communion;
implying the active notion of conversation.
He leaves out a sentence that occurs a little while later,
after Vincent has given a few examples of the way pros is
used in the Bible to show relationships between people: "Thus
John's statement is that the divine Word not only 'abode' with the
Father from all eternity, but was in the living, active relation
of communion with Him."
Phil then intones
The translation ‘the word (logos) was with God’ implies a
static relationship, as though to simply say that one person was
with another, but that isn’t the true meaning.
So far this isn't too bad. We know from Vincent's discussion
that pros carries a more active idea of personal social
interaction than the English word "with" usually does. But Phil
continues on:
What it means is more like the word or logos was moving
towards, proactively interrelated, or in agreement with God.
‘With’ is not a bad translation of ‘pros’ per se, as long as it
is understood to mean essentially what the American Heritage
Dictionary lists as number 7 of 26 definitions for the word
‘with’:
7. a. In support of; on the side of: I'm with anyone who wants
to help the homeless. b. Of the same opinion or belief as: He is
with us on that issue.
What? First of all, I can accept the words "moving towards,
proactively interrelated" as a rough and rather clumsy
approximation of Vincent's words (to which Phil is apparently
appealing as the "true meaning of pros), but "in agreement
with God"? Where did that come from? It doesn't correspond very
closely to anything Vincent said. Phil doesn't say where he gets
it. But let that pass for now. He is already jumping into the 26
definitions of "with" that he finds in the American Heritage
Dictionary, and is pulling out the only one he says will do for
us "In support of, on the side of; ...Of the same opinion or
belief as."
Again—What? This is to lend credence to Phil's claim that
the Logos is a thing, not a person? In order to support somebody
else you need to have a consciousness of your own, don't you?
...to be a person, in other words? The same with having an opinion
or belief. That's a characteristic of a person, right? So out of
26 definitions, this is the one Phil picks as essentially meaning
what pros means?
Wow. Nobody has a talent for digging holes for himself like our
man Phil.
But, oblivious to the fact that he's just put up two quotations
that have made his own conclusion almost impossible, Phil tags it
on anyway:
The phrase ‘the Word was with God’ is commonly understood to
mean that person of Christ was in the presence of God in the
beginning, as though God and His word were two distinct beings
dwelling together in heaven. However, what it really means is
that the word (of God) was proactively accomplishing His
purposes from the beginning, which more or less simply restates
the fact that the material creation came forth as a consequence
of Yahweh’s word (Gen 1:1, Heb 11:3, etc.) …no other person is
inferred at all, only the thing called the logos, the word of
God.
"No other person is inferred at all." In view of what Phil has
just quoted for his readers, this stands as highly baffling.
Weren't his quotations chosen to show what the use of pros
really means here, supporting Phil's claim? But both the passage
from Vincent and the definition from the American Heritage
Dictionary quite clearly show that the use of pros does in
fact infer a relationship between persons. Even the two examples
the Dictionary uses both involve persons. So how are we supposed
to now agree with the statement that no other person is inferred
by its use in John 1:1? I don't get it. I again have to say with
emphasis that "The Demystified Logos" is not a credible piece of
work.
Sincerely,
Steve |
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Re:
Detangling the "Demystified" Logos
Posted by Phil on
8/19/2003 12:09:00 PM
208.188.193.124
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While noting that Steve has included a link to the original
article, it is also true that his index doesn't include the points of
the original article except as selectively quoted within the
rebuttals, nor my follow-up comments to Steve's rebuttals. Regardless
of intent, Steve has made HIS comments easily available in a way that
isolates them from the context of the article he seeks to refute and
the counterpoints made to them.
In contrast, I have posted under one easy heading: 1) The entire
article, including the introduction that has been ignored here, 2)
Steve's rebuttals, and 3) My follow-up comments. The link for this is
given below.
Steve adds the following qualification:
"Phil apparently views it as a formal debate, but all I am
really doing is giving my reasons why I don't find Phil's paper to be
credible, as requested by both Steve M. and Eric H."
Actually, since there has been no credible rebuttal to the article
since its original publication on the internet three years ago, I find
Steve's opposing views to add to the light cast on the subject for the
sake of readers.
I'm sure that Phil in turn will not find my reasons credible,
but I don't have the time to continue writing further replies of my
own to his replies, ad infinitum.
I didn't comment the first time he said this, and I see no reason
for Steve to contend with his conjecture of my thoughts. Frankly, I
just appreciate the challenge, no matter how slight or abbreviated it
may be. Steve's conjecture notwithstanding, this is amply demonstrated
by my work in putting the entire debate together in a full and
coherent way.
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Point #8 - Is
the Logos really God?
Posted by Steve B. on 8/19/2003
9:00:00 PM
64.38.163.75
Point #10 of Phil's paper is titled, "Is the Logos Really
God?"
In it, Phil continues to distort the historical and linguistic
evidence almost beyond recognition. He writes,
Having already covered how ‘the word’ or ‘memra’ was freely
substituted for ‘Yahweh’ in the course of public readings of the
Scripture in the synagogues, it naturally follows that the same
was true of the common literary usage of the Greek word ‘logos’,
as well. Thus, the answer to the question at hand is yes, in the
minds of John’s contemporaries, it was perfectly appropriate to
refer to God as ‘the word,’ or vice-versa.
Notice first of all how this is inconsistent with the case Phil
has been building for logos being a personification. A
personification is not the same thing as a substitution of one
word for something else. In anybody's judgment besides Phil's,
that is.
Further, apparently forgetting the material he quoted about Philo
several sections ago, Phil contradicts himself again and now tells
us "the common literary usage of the Greek word logos" is
nothing but the very same thing as the usage of memra in
the Hebrew. This is staggering nonsense.
In reality, of course, besides for the fact that it was never
known to be used in the same way as the memra of the
Targums, logos or "word" was not limited to one simple
meaning "in the minds of John's contemporaries" (or in any other
minds, for that matter). Raymond E. Brown in the volume on John
(vol. 29) in the Anchor Bible lists the known meanings with which
the first century Hellenic world would have been familiar before
they encountered the book of John:
- Meanings in Hellenistic sources:
- Heraclitus: logos = the eternal principle of order.
- Stoics: logos = the mind of God.
- Philo: logos = an intermediary between God and has
creatures. Gave meaning to the universe. Almost a second God.
- Meanings in Jewish sources:
- Prophetic Word of the Lord, and the Word active in
creation.
- Personified Wisdom: The Word = the agent of creation.
- Jewish speculation on the Law: the Word of God = the Law.
The Law is pictured as having been created before all things
and having served as the pattern for creation.
- Targumic use of Memra : Memra = surrogate
for God himself. This is not personification, but the use of
Memra serves as a buffer for divine transcendence.
In addition to these uses, Brown list three other meanings
which may have originated after John's time, or maybe before - it
is hard to know exactly when they came into use. These additional
meanings are found in Hermetic literature, in the Mandean
liturgies, and in Gnosticism, all of which give "Word" or "Word of
God" different meanings yet again from the above meanings.
So we are right back where we always were. We can take a look at
all these uses, and decide to what degree they may or may not
illuminate John's use, but, as in any question of interpretation,
context is the decisive indicator of meaning. And it's clear which
way we are pointed by the context in which John puts the Logos. As
I said before, we know the Logos identifies a Christ who existed
in the beginning with God and as God because that is the way
Christ continues to be identified in the rest of John's Gospel.
The Logos is said to be God at the first of the Gospel, and Jesus
is said to be God at the end. In between, as the Word made flesh,
Jesus is said to be equal to the Father, claims himself to have
existed before Abraham and to have had glory with the Father
before the world was, and says he is in the Father and the Father
in him. Unbiased readers need no literary analyst to tell them
whether or not the Word is a person, nor to reveal to them the
identity of that person.
Phil, of course, doesn't touch context with a ten-foot pole, but
he does seem to be getting more and more nervous about his
description of the logos as a "personification." That description
doesn't occur in this section. Instead, Phil seems to waffle a
little on the precise definition when he writes,
Thus, for John to say, ‘the logos was the same as God’ to
them was no different than any number of similar statements and
implications by philosophers and religionists of that
generation. It was a statement about the nature of the word of
God, which embodied of all of God’s will, works, manifestations,
and revelations in the world.
That is pretty vague. Phil's bottom line seems to be we can
pick any one, or all, of the definitions current in the ancient
world, just as long as we don't say John could have given it a new
meaning of his own. But if the Stoics, or Heraclitus, or Philo,
could give logos their own meaning, why can't John? Does
Phil really think that question won't occur to his readers? |
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God is God,
and His word is His word
Posted by Phil on
8/20/2003 12:29:00 PM
208.188.193.207
In defense of my primary contention that the word of God
(logos) did not carry the definition of being the literal
person of God and/or Christ in John’s day, let me challenge all the
evidence Steve has introduced to the contrary. First, Steve’s
evidence…
…searching
…searching
…searching
Okay, so there isn’t any, so let me instead address Steve’s contention
that John “could have given it a new meaning of his own”. Perhaps
Steve can (though he hasn’t) find an acknowledged authority who
contends that interpreting the words of Scripture based on
non-existent definitions at the time they were written is good
practice. Since he has put so much stock in the doctrinal conclusions
of such “authorities” (who are not by any means silent on the subject
of Biblical interpretation) this would seem reasonable. Perhaps he
could even give us a reason to accept what seems to me and all the
“authorities” I’ve consulted an absolutely unreasonable approach to
Biblical interpretation.
That said, Steve’s contention against all the literary evidence
already presented remains harmonious with “orthodox theology”: That
John intended us to understand his prologue to mean that the word of
God (logos) was literally the person of God.
Skipping over the ad hominem wrappings of Steve’s empty challenges,
we are left with an argument that completely evades the point: “A
personification is not the same thing as a substitution of one word
for something else.” The profundity of the argument is truly mind
boggling! Not that it really matters, but the substitution of a thing
for a person in a literary work would generally also qualify as a
personification. More to the point, it would not qualify as a new
definition of the thing as a person.
Steve regards this as a distortion of historical and linguistic
evidence, which, it would seem we are to accept on the same basis we
are to accept a definition of the word ‘logos’ that didn’t exist at
the time John wrote his gospel – because Steve says so.
Next we are to accept that my contention that “in the minds of
John’s contemporaries, it was perfectly appropriate to refer to God as
‘the word,’ or vice-versa” is “staggering nonsense” on the same basis.
His argument is that my previous well-qualified reference to Philo’s
philosophical usage of the term negates my connection with the
directly parallel substitution (and simultaneous personification) of
‘the word’ or ‘memra’ in the Jewish Targums read regularly in the
synagogues. The only “staggering nonsense” represented here is Steve’s
resort to a frivolous argument instead of acknowledging the obvious
connection between common Jewish representations of the word of God
and John’s.
Though Steve is perfectly willing to completely disregard the
commonly held principle of hermeneutics regarding using word
definitions current with the time of writing, he now wants to
inappropriately apply another common principle in its stead. According
to Steve, we should interpret the definition of ‘logos’ according to
the context rather than the meaning the word actually had to John and
his contemporaries!
Of course, having taken such license, it is no great reach for him
to also unequivocally represent his own doctrinal bias as the
“context” by which we should further pervert the text of John’s
gospel. According to Steve, we are to accept his interpretation of
other passages in John’s Gospel as fact (I won’t chase those red
herrings at the moment) and, therefore, accept his definition of
‘logos’ as the person of God who became the man Yahshua Christ based
on those "facts". Notably absent in this thin line of circular
reasoning is the fact that none of the other 60+ usages of the word
‘logos’ in John’s Scriptures infer such a definition. Round and round
we go.
Steve concludes by suggesting that the diverse connotations of the
word ‘logos’ at that time somehow gives us a reason to buy his
contention that John simply made up a new definition for himself. What
he fails to see is that the different usages of the word were rooted
in different fundamental views of who and what God was and how He and
His works related to the material universe, not so much what the word
itself meant. They were religious and philosophical differences, not
grammatical ones. As I wrote in a previously covered section, “The
overwhelming testimony of such resources indicates that whatever else
may be said of the connotations of the ‘logos’ in John’s day, it was
universally regarded as a thing, not a person, even when used in close
connection with God, His will, and His works.” Even the 7 definitions
Steve listed from the Anchor Bible, useful information though that is,
affirm the same.
Thus, to interpret “the word was God” as a literal statement that
there was no distinction between the word of God and God Himself
remains a gross violation of all the evidence, generally accepted
hermeneutics, and common sense. It remains an obvious
personification of the logos, not a personalization of it.
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3.
Personification of the ‘Memra’ in the Targums
Posted by Phil on
8/20/2003 6:08:00 PM
208.188.193.239
In John’s day, the only copies of the Scriptures were hand
written and relatively scarce. In general, common people were only
familiar with it through regular readings in the Synagogues. One
practice that had developed in these public readings was various
paraphrases called the Targums became common, and these included the
substitution or paraphrase of various revelations of Yahweh as ‘the
memra’. On this, ISBE explains:
5. Targums: Finally in the Targums, which were popular
interpretations or paraphrases of the Old Testament Scripture, there
was a tendency to avoid anthropomorphic terms or such expressions as
involved a too internal conception of God's nature and
manifestation. Here the three doctrines of the Word, the Angel, and
Wisdom are introduced as mediating factors between God and the
world. In particular the chasm between the Divine and human is
bridged over by the use of such terms as me'mera' ("word" ) and
shekhinah ("glory" ). The me'mera proceeds from God, and is His
messenger in Nature and history. But it is significant that though
the use of this expression implied the felt need of a Mediator,
the Word does not seem to have been actually identified with the
Messiah.
And Vincent adds,
After the Babylonish captivity the Jewish doctors combined into
one view the theophanies, prophetic revelations and manifestations
of Jehovah generally, and united them in one single conception, that
of a permanent agent of Jehovah in the sensible world, whom they
designated by the name [Memra] ("word," logos (NT:3056)) of Jehovah.
The learned Jews introduced the idea into the Targums, or Aramaean
paraphrases of the Old Testament, which were publicly read in the
synagogues, substituting the name "the word of Jehovah" for that of
Jehovah, each time that God manifested himself. Thus, in Ge 39:21,
they paraphrase, "The Memra was with Joseph in prison." In Ps 110.
Jehovah addresses the first verse to the Memra. The Memra is the
angel that destroyed the first-born of Egypt, and it was the Memra
that led the Israelites in the cloudy pillar.
The average Jew of John’s day, who relied on public readings for their
knowledge of the Scripture, was accustomed to having ‘the memra’
meaning ‘the word’ read in place of not only ‘the word of Yahweh’, but
of Yahweh Himself. Thus, while the actual text of Gen 39:21 reads,
“But Yahweh was with Joseph….”, what was read in the synagogues was,
“But the Memra [Word] was with Joseph…”; likewise, Ps 110:1 was read
as ‘The Memra [Word] says to my Lord…”, while the actual text says,
“Yahweh says to my Lord…”
ISBE calls this the “deified law”, and, again, associates it with
the logos:
(5) Logos, memra' (memera') and angels.-This process of
abstraction had gone farthest in Alexandria, where Jewish thought
had so far assimilated Platonic philosophy, that Philo and Wisdom
conceive God as pure being who could not Himself come into any
contact with the material and created world. His action and
revelation are therefore mediated by His Powers, His Logos and His
Wisdom, which, as personified or hypostatized attributes, become His
vicegerents on earth. But in Palestine, too, many mediating agencies
grew up between God and man. The memra', or word of God, was not
unlike Philo's Logos. The deified law partly corresponded to
Alexandrian Wisdom.
The important thing to note here, again, is that none of these valid
precedents regarding the logos or word of Yahweh either indicated
reality or personality, according to ISBE:
The Bible, on the other hand, while speaking of Him as invisible,
and unknowable through merely human effort (Job 11:7-8; Jn 1:18 ) ,
yet reveals Him in Christ, who is God and man. Jewish mysticism
endeavored to solve the problem of creation by the invention of the
'Adham qadhmon (archetypal man), and earlier by Philo's Logos
doctrine and the Memra' of the Targums. But these abstractions
have neither reality nor personality.
Under the article on Logos, ISBE also comments:
As a Palestinian Jew familiar with current Jewish ideas and forms
of devout expression, it would be natural for him [John] to adopt a
word, or its Greek equivalent, which played so important a part in
shaping and expressing the religious beliefs of the Old Testament
people. Many scholars consider that we have here the probable source
of Johannine language. In the Old Testament, and particularly, in
the Targums or Jewish paraphrases, the "Word" is constantly spoken
of as the efficient instrument of Divine action; and the "Word of
God" had come to be used in a personal way as almost identical with
God Himself. In Rev 19:13, we have obviously an adoption of this
Hebrew use of the phrase.
…it has been pointed out by Weizsacker (Apostolisches Zeitalter)
that the Word of God is not conceived in the Old Testament as an
independent Being, still less as equivalent for the Messiah, and
that the rabbinical doctrine which identifies the memra with God is
of much later date.
Again, the evidence all indicates that John incorporated established
thought and style in the prologue of his Gospel, but that same
evidence also very clearly excludes the conclusion of the word of
Yahweh being an independent being.
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10. Is the
Logos REALLY God?
Posted by Phil on
8/20/2003 6:11:00 PM
208.188.193.239
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Having already covered how ‘the word’ or ‘memra’ was freely
substituted for ‘Yahweh’ in the course of public readings of the
Scripture in the synagogues, it naturally follows that the same was
true of the common literary usage of the Greek word ‘logos’, as well.
Thus, the answer to the question at hand is yes, in the minds of
John’s contemporaries, it was perfectly appropriate to refer to God as
‘the word,’ or vice-versa. However, the point of contention here
regards whether or not this indicated that the logos was a distinct
independent being or person, and the evidence already presented
indicates a resounding ‘no’ to that.
The UBS Scholars offer some interesting insights regarding the
phrase ‘the word was God’ (Jn. 1:1):
…Since "God" does not have the article preceding it, "God" is
clearly the predicate and "the Word" is the subject. This means that
"God" is here the equivalent of an adjective, and this fact
justifies the rendering he (the Word) was the same as God. John is
not saying that "the Word" was God the Father, but he is affirming
that the same divine predication can be made of "the Word" as can be
made of God the Father, and so "the Word" can be spoken of as God in
the same sense.
…"God" completely characterizes "the Word," and all that is true
of God is true of the Word. This does not mean, however, that the
two elements can be inverted, and that one can translate "God was
the Word" any more than one can make "Love is God" an inversion of
the biblical statement "God is love." It is difficult for some
people to recognize that this equational sentence in Greek belongs
to the second class because in the predicate the term "God" refers
to a unique object. Since this type of equational sentence may be
misleading with "God" in the predicate, it is better to translate it
"The Word was the same as God" or "Just what God was that is what
the Word also was."3
In other words, the same reasoning seems to apply here that did in the
substitution of ‘memra’ for Yahweh in the Targums, though the idea of
a personal being apart from God was never in view. While many of our
generation imply that John was making a profound statement of
identifying a distinct being as the logos, those of John’s day were
well accustomed to literary references that represented Yahweh as His
word and vice versa. Thus, for John to say, ‘the logos was the same as
God’ to them was no different than any number of similar statements
and implications by philosophers and religionists of that generation.
It was a statement about the nature of the word of God, which embodied
of all of God’s will, works, manifestations, and revelations in the
world.
If we desire to understand the true meaning of the passage in
question, we must look at it from the perspective of John’s
contemporaries, not our own. John used common terms and an established
format of HIS day in writing his Gospel record, so we must interpret
it accordingly. While ‘the word was God’ may seem to identify a
distinct person who is God from our perspective, the evidence is
strongly against such a meaning being concluded from the same passage
by those living at the time of its writing.
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Point #11 -
Christ as Creator
Posted by Steve B. on 8/21/2003
8:39:00 PM
64.38.161.11
Phil starts off Point #11 with something of a misstatement of
the orthodox position by titling it, "The Logos ALSO Created All
Things?" A more accurate statement of it would be to simply use
the words of the passage, and ask, "Was anything created WITHOUT
the Logos?" For, of course, the teaching of the church has always
been from the New Testament onwards, that Christ personally is the
Logos, and as such is not only the mediator by and
through whom God created all, but also the means by and
through whom God sustains all. This is stated in Colossians
1:16-17 and Hebrews 1:1-2 as well as here in John 1—
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All
things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made
that was made.
(John 1:1-3 KJV)
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that
are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or
dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created
by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
(Col 1:16-17 KJV)
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time
past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days
spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all
things, by whom also he made the worlds...
(Heb 1:1-2 KJV)
These verses pretty much speak for themselves. Taken together,
they are a powerful witness to the identity of the Logos (the
living Word by which God creates and sustains), and to Christ's
deity. They need no comment. All Phil can do in this section is
complain that belief in the literal meaning of these passages
represents a "misinterpretation" that is caused by an "assumption"
that the Logos is the pre-existent Christ. However, the belief in
Jesus' pre-existence and deity is not something that people start
with, but a conclusion they arrive at after seeing consistent
threads of teaching in the New Testament like that shown in the
above three passages. It is people who teach against the deity of
Christ who must work to undermine the natural sense and continuity
of the scriptures, not those who worship him as Lord and God. |
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God as
Creator, His word as the means
Posted by Phil on
8/21/2003 9:58:00 PM
12.171.32.38
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Misrepresenting historical facts, Steve says that “the
teaching of the church has always been from the New Testament
onwards, that Christ personally is the Logos…” and then goes on to
apply more of his trademark circular reasoning to the point at hand.
History actually shows such beliefs to have been quite large
controversies through several centuries following the apostles, having
been settled only by a majority (not unanimous) vote of non-apostles
assembled at Nicea in 325 A.D. with the endorsement of a dubious new
convert emperor and enforced by the power of the Roman empire’s might.
It is the teachings of the apostles, particularly the words of John in
the prologue of his gospel, that are at issue, anyway, not the
teachings of whatever Steve means by “the church”.
Though Steve is yet to offer one, single shred of evidence to
validate the definition of the logos as “Christ personally” (which is
the central point of this debate), he doesn’t have any problem
continually injecting that as a premise in his arguments. This
circular trend continues as he cites other passages, which he believes
argue his understanding of the doctrine he indiscriminately infuses
into John’s Prologue, but this debate isn’t about what other passages
mean, it is about what John’s Prologue means. Notice how Steve misses
the point: Instead of showing how John meant what he claims, he argues
how other passages support what he believes and injects into his
interpretation of what John wrote. Whether doctrines pertaining to the
alleged pre-existence of Christ or His role in creation are true or
not, the particular verse in question doesn’t say anything about
Christ personally creating anything. Rather, it says that all things
were created by the logos or word of God – ‘it’, not ‘He’ or ‘Him’ –
just like Gen 1:1 and numerous other passages affirm…nothing more and
nothing less.
If, on the other hand, Steve could show that what he says was a “new
definition” of the word ‘logos’ in John’s Prologue is corroborated by
any of the other 300+ times it appears in the New Testament (60 or so
by John), then he might have something. He can’t, though, because the
logos is an ‘it’ throughout Scripture (including Hebrew equivalents in
the Old Testament), and IT, not HE, is the means by which God created
all things, just like John said when he wrote, “All things came
into being by [the word of God], and apart from [the word of God]
nothing came into being that has come into being.”
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Point #12 -
The Incarnation
Posted by Steve B. on 8/23/2003
12:38:00 PM
64.38.163.147
Phil's last section is titled, "The Logos Was Made Flesh." In
it, Phil attempts to dilute the force of those words in John 1:14
by attempting to convince us they mean no more than that Jesus is
a man who has been "chosen to manifest and reveal Yahweh...
Yahweh’s Prime Minister or Chief Executive Officer if you will."
Here again, Phil completely disregards context. Because of that,
and because by verbal sleight-of-hand Phil so often attempts to
change its phrases into something they are not, the entire
Prologue is worth quoting in full at this time to show just
exactly what Phil is up against:
In
the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was
not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of
men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the
darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was
John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of
the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear
witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man
that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by
him, and the world knew him not. |
11 He came unto his
own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he
power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on
his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will
of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of
the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying,
This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is
preferred before me: for he was before me.
16 And of his fulness have all we received, and
grace for grace.
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and
truth came by Jesus Christ.
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only
begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath
declared him.
(John 1:1-18 KJV) |
This is the context of the words, "the Word was made flesh," a
passage which is itself of course in the context of the Gospel of
John, a book in the New Testament of the Christian Bible. Anyone
who cannot see that the Logos of this passage is personally
contiguous with the Christ of OT prophecy and the Christ of the NT
gospel is beyond any further help of language.
But I will try anyway, not so much for Phil's sake as for the sake
of any who may be wavering in indecision as a result of this new
assault upon Jesus's deity by those influenced in the past by the
UROG doctrine of the Chapel. And also for the sake of giving a
complete answer to Steve M and Eric H, who were the ones who
originally suggested I had no reason, outside of an alleged desire
to slander Phil, for thinking his paper to be a mockery of
scholarship.
So with that said, I ask my readers to note that the words "the
Logos was made flesh" are not the only things here that have led
most people to see an incarnation of the eternal Son of God in
John's Gospel. In addition to saying the Logos was made flesh, and
in fact before using that description, this passage also says the
Logos was in the world, but the world did not receive him. It
further says to those who did receive him, to those who
believed on his name, he gave power to become sons of God.
Did the Logos have a name? This verse says he did. It was the name
on which men believed, and by which they became sons of God—the
name of a person, the name of Jesus.
Likewise, John says the Logos had a people of his own to who whom
he came. Can an impersonal thing have a people of its own? No, but
God does, the God who chose the Jews and told them he was their
only saviour. And John's prologue summarizes the story found in
the rest of this Gospel (as well as in the other Gospels) of how
that saviour came to his own people, and was rejected by them and
crucified, but rose again in the power of God, and by the grace of
God extended that salvation to us.
The point of verse 14 is not only that the Logos was made flesh,
but that he dwelt among us. He was made flesh so that he could
dwell among us. The picture is not that of a "representation," but
of the personal presence of the one who existed with God and as
God in the beginning.
But Phil would have us to shut our eyes to John's wording on the
basis that his meaning has to be limited by the way the
philosophies of the world have used logos before him. One
cannot but smile sadly at the amount of work he has done to
willfully blind himself to meaning that seems so evident to
others. He has come up with an inane principle, said to be from
hermeneutics, but in reality from his own willful ignorance, that
no author can mean more by a word than what it already meant "in
the minds of his contemporaries."
[Continued in next posting...]
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Point #12 -
The Incarnation (cont'd)
Posted by Steve B. on 8/23/2003
12:40:00 PM
64.38.163.147
[...continued from previous posting]
The Demystified Logos is built upon the "common
hermeneutical principle" that no Biblical author can mean more by
a word than what it already meant "in the minds of his
contemporaries." So let us therefore challenge Phil, and ask him
the source of his principle - in what book or article can we find
it listed among the other principles of hermeneutics? I confess I
suspect that Phil has created this principle especially for this
case by distorting several of the others. I myself have had a
Bible college course in hermeneutics, and I've read fairly widely
on the subject both before and after that time, yet I've not heard
of this "principle" other than in Phil's own doctrinal
speculations. Worse than that, it seems to encourage us to violate
several of the hermeneutical principles of which I have
heard.
For example, Hank Hanegraaff of the Christian Research Institute
has used an easy-to-remember anagram of LIGHTS for a short list: Literal
Interpretation, Illumination by the Holy Spirit,
Grammatical Principles, Historical
Context, Teaching Ministry, Scriptural
Harmony. (A short article discussing these principles is found at
http://www.equip.org/free/DB010.htm.)
The principal of "Historical Context" does NOT mean that a
Biblical author can't use a word in his own way or is limited by
past usage, but rather, "The biblical text is best understood when
one is familiar with the customs, culture, and historical context
of biblical times." It is historical context that in fact allows
us to decide that "the Logos" is not being used in the same way by
John as it was used by others. We know a lot about the historical
context of the other philosophies and religions for which the term
logos was significant, and one immediately sees that John
is not speaking from their world in his use of logos, but
rather in a way unique to the New Testament.
This is because of another of CRI's principles of hermeneutics:
Scriptural Harmony. Hanegraaff explains this to mean that,
"Individual passages of Scripture must always be in harmony with
Scripture as a whole." In the case of the Logos, this means it is
consistent with the rest of Scriptures, in which Christ is
continually pictured as possessing a sonship in relation to God
that goes beyond mere human sonship to include divine
characteristics such as eternal existence, power, and glory.
CRI's principle of Scriptural Harmony is another way of saying
that scripture must be allowed to interpret itself. In the Bible
college course that I had at the Chapel, this principle was broken
down into several levels, the most relevant of which stated, "Take
words in the sense indicated by the context." In my notes, I have
the instructor explaining it this way—
- in Biblical language, as in any language, a word varies in
significance and meaning depending upon its context...
- to determine whether or not the word is meant in a spiritual,
figurative, or literal sense, the context must be studied
carefully...
- to have a proper system of Biblical hermeneutics, have to
understand that God is the author of the Bible, not man.
- therefore, a few points must be kept in mind:
- God is not bound to limit himself to man's understanding
(Is 55:8-9).
- God has not bound himself to man's definitions.
- God is not bound to man's interpretations...
Though I've come to believe the Chapel itself abused these
principles (to say the least), they took these principles from
standard evangelical works of scholarship. They remain sound
principles if followed, but I think that is precisely what Phil
neglects to do. He instead violates the principles of hermeneutics
by saying a term's meaning (in this case, "the logos") must be
defined by known meanings in other philosophies and religions, not
by the context in which the Biblical author uses it, or by the
kinds of things that author says about it.
Let's also look at Phil's statement that the NT uses logos in 326
other places (I forget the exact number) and nowhere does it have
the meaning assigned to it by most commentators in John's
prologue. This turns out to have an easy and obvious answer. Many
times words are used in non-literal ways, not in their ordinary
dictionary meaning. The words "bread", "door", and "light" are
also used to refer to the person of Jesus. Are we to deny this
because in the rest of their Biblical uses, "they mean a thing,
not a person." Of course not. The real question is to ask, where
else is logos used in the form "THE logos" as a name or
title, as John uses in his first chapter? That is what we are
talking about. And the answer to that is—in two other
places: 1 John 1:1 and Revelation 19:13. Not surprisingly, in
both places "the Word" also refers to Jesus Christ, and the first
reference is again in the context of the incarnation—
1That which was from the beginning, which we have
heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked
upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear
witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the
Father, and was manifested unto us)
(1 John 1:1-2 KJV)
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse;
and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in
righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head
were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew,
but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood:
and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him
upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that
with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with
a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness
and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name
written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
(Rev 19:11-16 KJV)
All we need to do, then, in reply to Phil's last point is to
note that one of the best (agreed upon) hermeneutical
principles is to let scripture interpret scripture. When we do
that, there is no problem in seeing that John's object in showing
us the Logos was to show us that Jesus was not only the Father's
personal mediator in the creation of the new life in salvation,
but also in the creation of all things at all times, everywhere.
By Jesus Christ all things have been created and are sustained. |
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Humpty-Dumpty
Hermeneutics - Part 1
Posted by Phil on
8/29/2003 11:14:00 AM
12.171.33.98
Steve correctly notes that one of my central premises is
that the words of Scripture must be understood within the range of
definitions that applied at the time of writing, and, conversely, that
it is unreasonable to interpret Scripture based on word definitions
that didn’t exist at the time they were written. While this actually
seems to stand on reason alone, Steve attacks this principle in his
typical denigrating way, declaring it:
“…an inane principle, said to be from hermeneutics, but in
reality from his own willful ignorance, that no author can mean more
by a word than what it already meant ‘in the minds of his
contemporaries’ …So let us therefore challenge Phil, and ask him the
source of his principle - in what book or article can we find it
listed among the other principles of hermeneutics? I confess I
suspect that Phil has created this principle especially for this
case by distorting several of the others.”
Since this challenge provokes me to digress somewhat from the point at
hand, I’ve opted to deal with it separately. I’ll respond to whatever
fragments of Steve’s arguments remain after this in another post.
To begin with, let me briefly outline the different principles of
Bible interpretation between Steve and I: The central point is how do
we correctly define the words of Scripture. It is noteworthy that
Steve’s current position differs somewhat with his original
contention. At the onset of these proceedings, he argued that John was
using an existing definition of the word ‘logos’, saying,
“…The point at stake, however, is not whether a new or unique
definition is being used, but whether John is using an existing
definition of a term to illuminate an aspect of something (or
somebody) else upon which he wants to focus.”
To which I responded (and later explained),
“Begging to differ, the ‘point at stake’ is indeed regarding
the true definition of the word ‘logos’, Steve’s effort to change
the subject notwithstanding. I happen to agree that John’s purpose
in the Prologue goes to illuminating something new, though not in
the same way as Steve.”
This is relevant because it was only later, after numerous challenges
failed to elicit any corroborating evidence that anyone of or
before John’s time actually perceived the logos to be a person and not
a thing (the word of God, not the word as
God), Steve’s position changed. Then came forth the notion that we
should interpret the word logos without regard to definitions current
with John’s time and instead take John’s usage as a “new meaning” of
the word, as he wrote:
“Phil's bottom line seems to be we can pick any one, or all,
of the definitions current in the ancient world, just as long as we
don't say John could have given it a new meaning of his own.”
As I will show, contrary to Steve’s unqualified opinion, I am far from
alone in regarding word definitions as the most basic element of
Scripture interpretation, and, further, that those definitions must be
real and not contrived. In contrast, Steve’s method is well described
in an article titled “Language” (http://www.robibrad.demon.co.uk/Language.htm)
by Robert Bradshaw as “The Humpty-Dumpty effect”, which he explains:
“…named after a famous speech by the fore-mentioned character
in ‘Alice Through The Looking Glass’. Humpty Dumpty declared that
‘When I use a word, it means what I want it to mean, nothing more,
nothing less.’ Alice told him that he was wrong, and she was right
to do so, because no one can play fast and loose with words and get
away with it. A series of words cannot mean anything you wish them
to mean.”
While this method of word usage may seem plausible on
the basis of the numbers and credentials of those who accept it with
regard to the logos in John 1, it begs the question, was the Apostle
John saying to himself as he wrote by the inspiration of the Holy
Spirit, ‘When I use a word, it means what I want it to mean…’? The
very notion defies another of the most obvious, commonly accepted, and
basic principles of interpretation – common sense. As I said elsewhere
already, just as it would be wrong to read an 18th century account of
a ‘gay’ man as referring to his sexual orientation, so is it wrong to
apply more recent definitions of the Greek word ‘logos’ to Scriptures
written in the 1st century. This seems rather self-evident to me, but
I still have Steve’s challenge to contend with, so I’m compelled to
digress into demonstrating that this concept is not a principle
derived from my own alleged “willful ignorance”. In the process, I
will also show that Steve is actually guilty of the very thing he
flippantly accuses me of.
Hopefully, most people need no further proof that interpreting
words according to their connotations at the time they were written is
the only sensible approach to interpreting any literature, especially
the Scriptures. Likewise, I trust the underlying point that is
somewhat obfuscate by this ridiculous challenge is obvious to the
readers: Steve is proposing that the ‘logos’ in John 1 be defined by a
definition that was contrived long after John’s death, which reason
alone shows to be an untenable position. Nevertheless, let’s see what
the “authorities” Steve puts so much stock in say:
In the same article referenced above, Bradshaw goes on to affirm my
premise, explaining the common sense principle with much more
technical precision than I:
“The meanings of words are not static; language changes and
develops as the people who use it change and develop. Over the
centuries the range of meanings a word has (its semantic range)
changes, a process known as diachronic change.”
“…Related to this is the mistake of reading a later meaning back
into a biblical word, known as semantic anachronism.”
“… It is the meaning at the time of writing (the synchronic
meaning) that is most important for the correct exegesis of a
passage.”
Then, in an article titled, “How To Read The New Testament Letters” (http://www.robibrad.demon.co.uk/NTLetters.htm),
Bradshaw lists as the first general guideline,
“1. ) A TEXT CANNOT MEAN SOMETHING TO US THAT IT COULD NOT
HAVE MEANT TO ITS ORIGINAL READERS.(4) This is a very important
principle and is the best test of whether you have applied the text
correctly.”
Obviously, John’s readers would have understood the term ‘logos’
according to their understanding of the term (which I
have discussed at length already), not what was later assigned to the
word based on “doctrinal statements” supposedly made in John’s
Prologue, as Vine’s Expository Dictionary declares. Others echo the
same thought (emphasis mine):
“Interpreting the Bible correctly is a two-step process. We
must first discover what the passage meant in the day and age of the
author. …Why are these two steps important? First, the Bible
was not actually written directly to us, and it makes sense to put
ourselves in the shoes of the original audience if we are to
understand its message properly”…
(“BIBLE, INTERPRETATION OF” from Nelson's Illustrated Bible
Dictionary, Copyright (c)1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
“The meaning of a piece of writing is seldom clearly
self-evident to anyone who happens to read it. Especially is this
true if the writing is a very old document, written for someone who
lived in a very different cultural-historical setting. If we want to
interpret a piece of literature, we must ask at least five
questions: 1) Who was the writer and to whom was he writing? 2) What
was the cultural-historical setting of the writer? 3) What was
the meaning of the words in the writer's day?…”
“…The interpreter needs to know as much as possible about the
writer and his cultural-historical setting. If we know nothing
concerning who wrote a passage, when it was written, or under what
conditions it was written, we are almost left to guess what its
meaning might be. Knowing what an author has experienced and what
the thought forms of his day were aids us in understanding his
writing.”
(Note that Steve has conveniently rejected the considerable evidence
brought forth regarding the “thought forms of [John’s] day” on the
word ‘logos’, telling us rather that we should interpret the word as
though John pulled a Humpty-Dumpty on his readers by assigning a “new
meaning” to the word.)
“…Lexical study is the next phase of your literary study of
the Bible. You must consult a lexicon or dictionary to find the
meaning key words had when the original writer used them. His words
may have a different meaning today, and you must know what they
meant when originally used.
(“BIBLE, HERMENEUTICS” from Holman Bible Dictionary. (c)
Copyright 1991 by Holman Bible Publishers. All rights reserved.)
(continued...)
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Humpty-Dumpty
Hermeneutics - Part 2
Posted by Phil on
8/29/2003 11:16:00 AM
12.171.33.98
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(...continued from Part 1)
While Holman’s spells out the obvious reasons for looking beyond
English translations in order to discern the original meaning of the
words of Scripture, the point is implicit in many others simply by
their urgings to refer to dictionaries and lexicons. While Steve
charges that I have just made this principle up out of my own “willful
ignorance”, one must wonder why virtually every published work in
existence regarding Bible interpretation or study directs people to
take advantage of such resources. Obviously, most published
“authorities” on the subject seem to think that the definitions of the
original words of Scripture matter. However, in contrast, Steve’s
twisted Humpty-Dumpty hermeneutics don’t require any such references,
for we can just interpret the passage and assign whatever definitions
we want according to our interpretation of the passage and our general
doctrinal bias. That may work in Wonderland, but here in the real
world, most people figure the first step of understanding what someone
means is to know what the words they used mean.
The need to understand the words of Scripture in their original
languages is even implicit in the short article by Hank Hanegraaff
that Steve cited. Beginning with the first point, “Literal
Interpretation”, Hanegraaff wrote (emphasis mine):
“In simple terms, this means that we are to interpret the Word
of God just as we interpret other forms of communication — in its
most obvious and literal sense. …And where the biblical writers
express their ideas in literal statements, the interpreter must take
those statements in a literal sense. In this way, the interpreter
will grasp the intended meaning of the writer.”
Of course, this only indirectly applies to the point in dispute, but
it is evident that the only way to discern a literal understanding of
any passage necessarily involves having a literal understanding of
what the words meant. This point is more clearly evidenced in the
third of five principles outlined by Hanegraaff, “Grammatical
Principles”:
“…If you do not know Greek or Hebrew, however, don’t panic.
Today there are a host of eminently usable tools to aid you in
gaining insights from the original languages of Scripture.
Besides commentaries, there are “interlinear” translations that
provide the Hebrew and Greek text of the Bible in parallel with the
English text. As well, Strong’s concordance has a number-coding
system by which you can look up the Greek or Hebrew word (along
with a full definition) behind each word in the English Bible.
Moreover, there are dictionaries of Old and New Testament words
that are keyed to Strong’s concordance. Tools such as these make it
easy for the layperson to obtain insights on the original Hebrew or
Greek of the Bible without being fluent in these languages.”
It is interesting that Steve skipped right over this, the most
pertinent of the five points of Hanegraaff’s article, in order to
argue that the next one (“Historical Context”) did not support my
premise. Even in that, his argument is weak, to say the least.
Although Steve would like to completely discard the historical context
of the thought associated with the word ‘logos’ in the first century,
sufficient evidence has been provided to surmise that either John was
a complete buffoon, or he took this into full account in his usage of
the word. In fact, if the principle of regarding historical context
has any bearing on anything in the Bible, it would surely apply to
John’s use of the word ‘logos’ (which was loaded to the hilt with
contemporary thought at the time) in his Prologue. As Hanegraaff
wrote,
“The biblical text is best understood when one is familiar
with the customs, culture, and historical context of biblical
times.”
From this, Steve attempts to perpetuate his table turning by
suggesting that the historical context “does NOT mean that a
Biblical author can't use a word in his own way or is limited by past
usage.” Notice how the implication here is that I must prove that
John didn’t use the word ‘logos’ according to new, different, and
unheard of definition, not that Steve must support his contention that
John employed a “new meaning” for the word. This misapplication of the
burden of proof is unacceptable: The fact that Steve cannot validate
his own assertion does not compel me to disprove it. I might as well
try to disprove the notion that the word ‘logos’ meant ice cream.
Then, going even further into Wonderland, Steve suggests a reverse
application of the principle by arguing that his “new meaning” of the
‘logos’ must be correct since it is at odds with the historical
context and “unique [even] to the New Testament”! How bizarre
is that! Lest someone think I’m making that up, here’s his own words:
“It is historical context that in fact allows us to decide
that "the Logos" is not being used in the same way by John as it was
used by others. We know a lot about the historical context of the
other philosophies and religions for which the term logos was
significant, and one immediately sees that John is not speaking from
their world in his use of logos, but rather in a way unique to the
New Testament.”
Next, Steve explains himself by rendering the same circular argument
he’s been applying throughout this debate: That we should interpret
John’s Prologue right down to the definition of the word ‘logos’
according to the doctrinal bias that was established over 100 years
after John’s death, rather than using sound exegesis to draw the
meaning out of the passage. This is a classic example eisegesis
(injecting one’s own thoughts into Scripture), which is universally
portrayed as the wrong way to interpret Scripture. Steve feebly
attempts to draw justification for this from Hanegraaff’s last point
(“Scriptural Harmony”) as follows:
“ This is because of another of CRI's principles of
hermeneutics: Scriptural Harmony. Hanegraaff explains this to mean
that, ‘Individual passages of Scripture must always be in harmony
with Scripture as a whole.’ In the case of the Logos, this means it
is consistent with the rest of Scriptures, in which Christ is
continually pictured as possessing a sonship in relation to God that
goes beyond mere human sonship to include divine characteristics
such as eternal existence, power, and glory.”
Before responding to this, it bears mentioning that the specific point
of “The De-Mystified Logos” pertains to the correct interpretation of
John’s Prologue with particular focus on the word ‘logos’, not the
deity of Christ and related doctrines. As I wrote in the Introduction,
“Although I make no pretense regarding my own bias, this
contention is specifically against the typical arguments raised from
John 1 in support of the deity of Christ doctrine, not the doctrine
itself. Whether or not the deity of Christ doctrine is true, John
wrote ‘logos’, not ‘Christ’, and meant it according to the common
usage of the word in his time, not ours.”
Now, to Steve’s point, let
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